@Wayne
That's what YOU believe, how do you know that god wouldn't consider choosing to be killed to be suicide?
Because I am not an agnostic, because the Bible tell me that people can kill you for following Christ. On a side note, can't you see the difference between, dying for what you believe in and suicide. Suicide is an act which is a result of, dismay, pain, hopelessness or guilt. Dying for what you believe asks for courage, hope, dignity, the will to evaluate everything you hold dear in your life and weigh it against your faith and coming out with it. It is not easy. And is it so hard to understand - the difference between suicide and choosing to die for what you believe. Surely, you can not be that Naive!
I can understand "standing up for what you believe in", and even giving your life because it furthers a cause you believe in. But I look at such stands in terms of "what is the possible cost?" versus "what is the possible benefit?". Would I risk my life to try to protect others - yes. In fact I have on occasion, I was a member of a volunteer fire department for a number of years and was involved in several rescues, at least one of which was downright "sticky". Would I risk my life for an idea that would benefit others - yes. Actually I've done that as well, I participated in some of the civil rights marches and protests during the '60's and '70's. Would I throw my life away on an idea where doing so would not benefit anyone? Not a chance!
Cost and benefit is a good thing to evaluate, I do not go against it, but to me there is no greater cost than self respect and your faith. I would never compromise on either. Because denial of either will result in me not being the man I want to be. Risking your life for others and not for your own self is quite interesting when put to test a little further down my post. But even if you throw faith out, have you read nothing about the people throughout history, who chose to die for their belief rather than accept the other side, rat out and live in their shadows? You should, read about Sophie Scholl (white rose), Bhagat Singh, Lady Jane Grey, William Wallace, Sir Thomas More, Joac of Arc, John Huss, Socrates.
Have you read Socrates, why did he chose to die? he was't a Christian? why didn't he flee. Because he believed in something and that it defined him as a person and denial of such would result in the loss of all moral grounds rather than his life, like a coward who couldn't face the consequences of his belief. Would you consider Socrates to have committed suicide by deciding not to run for his life?
So, if I understood this correctly, his wife said to go ahead and kill the children (and herself), and this is considered a GOOD thing??? And the pastor lived and wrote a book about it, presumably about how brave his wife was? How were his wife's actions any different than if she had aborted her children and committed suicide?
Sorry Wayne, you do not understand the concept at all. It is called the right thing to do, the thing that on all moral grounds defines your personality, even if you do not like it, in principle you either die for it or you rat out.
I imagine what kind of soldier you or anyone with cost to benefit mentality will make. You will kill for your country because it is the right thing to do, whether you like it or not. And if you are captured, and your enemy offered you freedom, all you have to do is to just spit on your flag and go home or else die. what will you do? How will your cost and benefit apply here. Would you spit on your flag, because it would not hurt anyone and you dying can not possibly benefit your country by dying like this. I mean you were prepared to risk your life for others but no way you are going to give it away if it benefits no one (as you said '
Not a chance'). so what would be your answer Wayne, would you spit on your flag with your cost and benefit mentality, (
remember your death benefits no one, not others, not even you), come home, live like nothing happened, a traitor, a coward. Or on principle you would like to be killed as also your fellow soldiers died. And if you choose death (which I doubt by your ideas) does that make you suicidal or brave? and what if you chose to die, would that be considered equal to the idea, if you had just committed suicide back at your home. This way a suicide equals a death of a soldier who chooses to die for his country rather than dishonor his nation's flag(see the similarity between, aborting and committing suicide or be buried to death for not denying your faith)
So spit on your flag and go home or die? What will it be? I am interested on how would answer this, Wayne
But to answer your question about the pastor. It is not about being considered a good thing, no but I do consider it as the right thing, the thing that on all moral grounds defines you as a person. And it is very different than aborting and committing suicide, I explained that above. The path to God is not wide, it is very narrow and hard and few try to walk on it. Btw the book wasn't about his wife, the book was about the soviet Christians who suffered at the hands of communism and atheism.
I would never presume to include anyone else in the consequences of a stand I chose to take.
I am not deciding for someone else, merely telling you that I know my girl, and I know like me, she would choose to be killed rather deny Christ. Just like you know your wife or girl that what food she likes? which flower she loves? what will she do if some certain thing went wrong?. That is how I Know.
I have no doubt of that either. But do you not see how dangerous such blind faith is?
Do you think, I am suicidal, that it is easy to come up with these kind of thoughts as plan of action, that I do not see the danger it poses, that I want to die, that life holds nothing dear to me. WOW, you presume much. If you think like that, you are wrong, it is wrong to presume that people having this kind of thoughts would not value life. To think that people like me are looking for an excuse to die, being stamped as a Martyr and go to heaven. sorry this is what Muslims train people like, Not Christians.
But let me tell you why I seem so ready in this kind of thought plan. I live in a country that is currently the breeding place for all the major fundamentalist/ extremist Muslim groups, including terrorists. And here Christians are killed or persecuted every week. Just yesterday, they burned down a church and killed two Christian teenagers, ages 14 and 15. And they didn't kill them by shooting, no. They beat them to death by wooden sticks, in the middle of the street, with a crowd watching and the police as well. No one came to their rescue and no one stopped them. In 2007, pastors from all over Pakistan, from active preaching denominations were kidnapped, tortured, killed, a few were left alive to be an example to others. Including an uncle of mine. I could give you a lot of examples but this will suffice. So this is how it works for Christians here. My dad is an evangelist, and it is now twice that my family has received death threats, phone calls, warning letters - to stop preaching or else be killed. Do you think we are suicidal or we do not have emotions. Again, I could rat out but that would be an insult not only to my own conscience but to my faith as well. Not to mention that I saw a lot of people who never denied their belief, their faith even if the cost was their life. I have been in front of a gun in a robbery, and I know how it feels and it is not easy, it is not quick and there is nothing good to feel about it.
And no this is not an emotional plea to understand my POV, these are the facts, these things still happen and no matter how much I do not like to be in a situation where I have to choose between death or love and life, I still know it can happen. And if it does, I hope to do the right thing.
