Evidence for God from Science

What is this verse referring to ?

"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

Hi Illegal6.

This verse is referring to the biblical generation from the time the nation of Israel was founded in 1948 to the time that that generation will end sometime in the future. It is part of the parable of the fig tree. It begins with a promise by Christ. "All those things", are the things Jesus describes in the chapter. Nation rising against nation, earthquakes and famines, people hating each other, false prophets deceiving many, societies morals being like the days of Noah, eventually cultimating in the abomination that causes desolation ( the desolator, that is Satan) returning to earth and finally climaxing with Christ returning, destroying Satan in his role as antichrist, levelling the city of Jerusalem and beginning the Lord's day. That generation won't end until all those things are fulfilled.

Hope that helps you.

Katabole wrote:Hi Illegal6.

This verse is referring to the biblical generation from the time the nation of Israel was founded in 1948 to the time that that generation will end sometime in the future. It is part of the parable of the fig tree. It begins with a promise by Christ. "All those things", are the things Jesus describes in the chapter. Nation rising against nation, earthquakes and famines, people hating each other, false prophets deceiving many, societies morals being like the days of Noah, eventually cultimating in the abomination that causes desolation ( the desolator, that is Satan) returning to earth and finally climaxing with Christ returning, destroying Satan in his role as antichrist, levelling the city of Jerusalem and beginning the Lord's day. That generation won't end until all those things are fulfilled.

Hope that helps you.

That's an opinion, not a fact. Just pointing that out.

illegal6 wrote:What is this verse referring to ?

"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

It's a difficult passage. Taken at face value it could appear that Jesus is telling those listening that the event he's speaking of before this verse will happen within about 40 years. It's a statement the interpretation of which has a great deal of impact. Some note that Matthew as a Gospel was written possible after the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70 and so some claim that these weren't actual words of Jesus but rather attributed to him to make it look like he was prophesying the fall of Jerusalem after that event was already known or could be known as imminent.

The generation, as otherwise noted isn't necessarily referring to the time frame of 40 years typically associated with a generation in Biblical terms. It can be speaking about a collective people group (geneos has elements of both time or national identity).

CS Lewis addressed this passage by suggesting that Jesus was speaking from His limited perspective as a Human, apart from His divinity (set aside as per Philippians 2:5-11). Add to that, Jesus clear statement that even the Son (Himself) didn't know the times involved but only God and you might infer from this that Jesus was simply speaking humanly. Of course, that creates a whole other series of issues to address. I think CS Lewis was talking out of school on this particular issue, but I mention it because it's a suggestion from one who is not a theologian properly but is often looked to in many areas.

Seeing it as literal and fulfilled by the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70 is the basis of a view called Preterism or more specifically, Full Preterism.

Seeing it as literal and partially fulfilled by the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70 with elements yet to be fulfilled (ie. the literal return of Christ) is the basis of a view call Partial Preterism. That's a very broad generalization. Partial preterism actually sees there being 2 returns of Christ, one at the fall of Jerusalem and one in the future.

Seeing it as partially fulfilled but without there being 2 returns of Christ is sometimes called a Partial Futurist position.

There are some Patristic Fathers who have some pretty inventive and radically different types of explanations. Jerome sees the "generation" spoken of as Spiritual in sense applying to the spiritual children of Jacob and some then make that a tie to Israel (as one other earlier explanation in this thread does) and some jump forward and see it as the Church collectively, meaning that until the ending of the age of the Church, these things will not be completely fulfiled, including the return of Christ.

This just scratches the surface. There's a lot deeper to go in all the general statements above and there are multiple different approaches. In some cases, the foundations of approach in understanding this passage and the different ways of viewing it, have been the basis for the establishment of different movements and denominations. It's a very good illustration that Scripture by itself often has an element of underlying assumption and interpretation upon which a person's understanding is formed. We all bring forms of these preformed understandings or grids to the Scripture based on what we've been taught or based upon how we initially read a passage and then seek to understand other passages in relationship to it.

Canuckster1127 wrote:That's an opinion, not a fact.

Your absolutely right Canuckster (Bart). Like many of us we have read many books on the subject, I've probably read close to 15,000 pages over the years just on eschatology; books, articles and views from many different denominations but after much deliberation I chose the futurist viewpoint, not that I believe that that viewpoint is absolutely right but I believe that it encompasses more closely the the scope that Christ was trying to teach that is lacking in full or partial preterism.

You know, I just love E W Bullingers works. A great Biblical scholar. But for example, he believed that the false messiah was a character called Bar-Cochebas in 135 AD, who had aquired posession of the city of Jerusalem forcing the Romans to besiege it. After I read Moffat's study on that subject, he claimed Bullinger was wrong and that the false messiah could only be Satan himself who hadn't manifested himself in Jerusalem yet. And with that I agree. Bullinger also believed in the rapture of the church which I vehemently disagree with. But Bullinger like many 19th century theologians didn't know it all. He died in 1915 and never saw Israel become a nation, even though a lot of his work was pointing towards that event happening. Even today, as Paul states, we look through a glass darkly, that is, we don't know it all. I don't claim to be anything myself but a humble believer in Christ. And just as I eat and drink everyday, I also read the Bible everyday. It's my spiritual food, so to speak. And I don't believe that there are any more prophets because Christ claims John the Baptist was the last and greatest prophet, outside of Christ himself.

Sometimes I feel like I should not say anything because it's easier not to say anything sometimes, but if I feel led I will respond to the best of my knowledge for those who seem to be seeking spiritual truth and the last thing I would want to do is to lead someone astray by false teaching because there has been too much of that throughout Christian history. I do appreciate you bringing up the different viewpoints because it's important to weigh them against one another, especially for those who have not read as much. And though I do not agree with everything you state, as I know you don't necessarily with me, I find it incredibly refreshing that you are not only a believer but an intelligent person whom I have little disagreement with.

Ron

No problem, Ron. Not looking for an argument. Just giving some background where I can.

ah my belated thanks to canuckster and katabole for replying

If you look at this passage and follow along with Josephus' War of the Jews, you can see that these were, in fact, fulfilled within that generation.

http://covenant-theology.blogspot.com/2 ... art-i.html
http://covenant-theology.blogspot.com/2 ... rt-ii.html
http://covenant-theology.blogspot.com/2 ... t-iii.html
http://covenant-theology.blogspot.com/2 ... rt-iv.html
http://covenant-theology.blogspot.com/2 ... rt-iv.html

Puritan Lad is our resident Partial Preterist (correct me if I'm wrong PL, it's been a while since I've looked at the old threads but I think that's how you described your postion.) He is a wealth on information on that position and can no doubt provide a lot of information on it.

Thanks Bart. That is correct.

puritan lad wrote:If you look at this passage and follow along with Josephus' War of the Jews, you can see that these were, in fact, fulfilled within that generation.

http://covenant-theology.blogspot.com/2 ... art-i.html
http://covenant-theology.blogspot.com/2 ... rt-ii.html
http://covenant-theology.blogspot.com/2 ... t-iii.html
http://covenant-theology.blogspot.com/2 ... rt-iv.html
http://covenant-theology.blogspot.com/2 ... rt-iv.html

Are you the same Puritan Lad who posted these articles that you listed above?

Yes. I thought links would be easier to read and follow rather than copying and pasting the entire work here.

illegal6 wrote:What is this verse referring to ?

"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

Hi Illegal6.

I would see it more along the lines of being condistional, presented in the subjuntive mood (contingent or possible outcome) which brings up another issue of Gods revealed will vs His hidden intention.

The kingdom was offered but God blinded most from receiving it, the offer was contingent on their exceptence but God had other intentions that was hidden from not only the people, but some things were even hidden from his disciples Luke 18:32-34, because if the people had understood with their hearts the reconciliation of the world wouldn't have takin place 2 Cor 5:18-20, Colossians 1:20, Romans 11:15.

Plus Luke 21:12-24 shows the desolation of 70AD was concerning Matthew 23:37-39, and not the period at the end of the times of the gentiles because that wasn't Gods intent for that period, He blinded them so the cross would happen his hidden agenda.

My two cents for what its worth.

Grace, Glen.

Matthew has a pattern of parallelism. For instance in Ch 5 he went up the hill, in Ch 8 he came down. Then 'Blessed are the poor in Spirit, and he heals a leper (poor in spirit). Then "Blessed are the meek, and the Centurion asks for a healing of his servant, but he is not worthy to have Jesus in his home. etc.

This parallelism is contained in four blocks.

The last concerns the passage in question. It suggests that the great tribulation is that of Christ himself... a Holy God placed in the hands of sinful men. What greater tribulation than for him to become sin incarnate? Had he not been rushed to the cross...had the days of HIS tribulation not been shortened "no flesh would be saved EVER! The desolation occurs when the Father departs while he is on the cross... the Son has been made to be sin... where is God on earth? How much more desolate could the earth be? The abomination that causes the desolation is the kiss of Judas since "He who condemns a righteous man is an abomination".

It suggests that we may die (depart) from this life at different times, yet arrive simultaneously in the air in a timeless eternity. As such, each and every one of us sees the rapture at the time of death. In this context, 'this generation' is every generation that reads it. We are carried away by the 'thief in night' from the perspective of time, but are raptured together from the perspective of timeless eternity.

Our days may come to seventy years,
or eighty, if our strength endures;
yet the best of them are but trouble and sorrow,
for they quickly pass, and we fly away. Psalm 90:10

1948+70=2018?