Evidence for God from Science

I'm often at battle with myself about the Bible.. atheists push generalizations that no scholars have found the Bible to be sound, or that no one is willing to piece together the gospel to earn $10,000..

there are so many 'contradictions' with 'explanations' but at times they work and at times they don't explain well enough..
It's hard to know what's right.
I guess the main purpose here:
Why didn't God make the Bible just AWESOME? Like SUPER SUPER solid and unquestionably irrefutable, perfectly accurate, no question as to whether or not things are contradictory?

Any insight?

Short1 wrote:I'm often at battle with myself about the Bible.. atheists push generalizations that no scholars have found the Bible to be sound, or that no one is willing to piece together the gospel to earn $10,000..

there are so many 'contradictions' with 'explanations' but at times they work and at times they don't explain well enough..
It's hard to know what's right.
I guess the main purpose here:
Why didn't God make the Bible just AWESOME? Like SUPER SUPER solid and unquestionably irrefutable, perfectly accurate, no question as to whether or not things are contradictory?

Any insight?

Isaiah 1:18 explains the why as well as Matthew 13:10

Proverbs 1:6-7 reveals why a bit better in that it seperates those who become wise seeking the Lord and the foolish who seek another path is made through use of reason.

And the bible is by the way an amazing book...
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I've seen lists of 'hundreds of contradictions' only to investigate the lists and find maybe a handful of possible things to talk about. The fact is, the level of criticism aimed at the Bible far surpasses the level of criticism aimed at any other written work in the history of mankind and here we are, some 1500 years later, with the Bible still intact and 1500 years of defense built up.

I wonder... how would some of the new atheist material hold up against 1500-year-long constant criticism from a huge portion of the world? Better yet... how would a compilation of 40ish new atheist material hold up? The contradiction count might skyrocket... but it would be a more accurate comparison.

Nice analogy!

Short1 wrote:I'm often at battle with myself about the Bible.. atheists push generalizations that no scholars have found the Bible to be sound, or that no one is willing to piece together the gospel to earn $10,000..

there are so many 'contradictions' with 'explanations' but at times they work and at times they don't explain well enough..
It's hard to know what's right.
I guess the main purpose here:
Why didn't God make the Bible just AWESOME? Like SUPER SUPER solid and unquestionably irrefutable, perfectly accurate, no question as to whether or not things are contradictory?

Any insight?

Because the Bible is not God's ultimate revelation. Jesus Christ is. The Bible points us toward Him. It's never been intended to replace or compete with Him.

Short1 wrote: Why didn't God make the Bible just AWESOME? Like SUPER SUPER solid and unquestionably irrefutable, perfectly accurate, no question as to whether or not things are contradictory?

Any insight?

What are you talking about?? The Bible already is SUPER solid, perfectly accurate, unquestionably irrefutable, etc...

Would you like to debate this?

MarcusOfLycia wrote:I've seen lists of 'hundreds of contradictions' only to investigate the lists and find maybe a handful of possible things to talk about. The fact is, the level of criticism aimed at the Bible far surpasses the level of criticism aimed at any other written work in the history of mankind and here we are, some 1500 years later, with the Bible still intact and 1500 years of defense built up.

I wonder... how would some of the new atheist material hold up against 1500-year-long constant criticism from a huge portion of the world? Better yet... how would a compilation of 40ish new atheist material hold up? The contradiction count might skyrocket... but it would be a more accurate comparison.

Well, you have to realize that many Christians state that the bible is the infallible word of God. Atheists never claim their work is perfect. Finding one inconsistency in a book written by an atheist human being has much less implication than finding an inconsistency in a book that is supposed to be the word of a perfect God. Surely you have to see the difference here.

If the bible is the infallible word of God, it should not have a single error or inconsistency. If it does, then it can not be the work of an all-knowing, all-perfect god. So questioning the bible is something we all should do to prove to ourselves that the resources (measured in time, money and human lives) that we invest in Christianity are worth it. If we can find out that the bible is not perfect, then maybe we can stop bashing gays, banning abortions, teaching ridiculous creationism in public schools, and other things that Christians often do to harm society due to their biblical views.

Also I wouldn't say the bible is "intact." There are many many different versions and it has been changed several times.

Gman wrote:

Short1 wrote: Why didn't God make the Bible just AWESOME? Like SUPER SUPER solid and unquestionably irrefutable, perfectly accurate, no question as to whether or not things are contradictory?

Any insight?

What are you talking about?? The Bible already is SUPER solid, perfectly accurate, unquestionably irrefutable, etc...

Would you like to debate this?

Sure lets debate it.

Please explain why there are so many different versions of the bible in circulation if it is so "SUPER solid, perfectly accurate, unquestionably irrefutable, etc..." I just searched and found 27 different English versions of the bible. I'm sure there are more.

Please also explain why the bible's all-powerful god is weaker than chariots and then read the rest of these...

1. Chariots defeat God
In Jeremiah 32:27, Matthew 19:26 and many other places, the bible talks about how nothing is too hard for God and that "with God, all things are possible." Then Judges 1:19 says "The LORD was with the men of Judah. They took possession of the hill country, but they were unable to drive the people from the plains, because they had iron chariots."

I'm sure back in the day, Iron chariots were pretty awesome, but today it seems ridiculous that iron chariots would have any part in changing the actions of an army backed by God. Right? This is not taken out of context, I have asked several extremely religious people about this and even their study bibles state that there is no explanation for why chariots defeated God.

2. In Genesis, Jacob says he has seen god face to face, but in John the bible states that nobody has seen God...
Genesis 32:30 - So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, "It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared."
John 1:18 - No one has ever seen God

3. In Acts 1:24, God "know everyone's heart" and in Psalm 139, God can read minds, but in Genesis 22:12, Deuteronomy 8:2 and Deuteronomy 13:3 God tests people "in order to know what was in your heart" and states "Now I know that you fear God" (implying that he didn't know before hand). He knows everyone's heart, but has to test people to find out what's in their heart? That makes no sense.

4. God does not change:
James 1:17 - Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows
Numbers 23:19 - God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?

...then God changes
Jonah 3:10 - When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he had compassion and did not bring upon them the destruction he had threatened (direct contradiction of the end of the Numbers quote above)

2 Kings 20:1 ..."Put your house in order, because you are going to die; you will not recover" ...minutes later... 2 Kings 20:4-5 "I have heard your prayer and seen your tears; I will heal you"

Genesis 6:6 - The LORD was grieved that he had made man on earth, and his heart was filled with pain.

Genesis 8:20 - God regrets the flood and says "never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood"

5. Does god show favoritism?
Romans 2:11 - For God does not show favoritism
Romans 9:11-13 - Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad - in order that God's purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls - she was told, "The older will serve the younger" Just as it is written "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

6. Does god Lie?
Hebrews 6:18 - it is impossible for God to lie
2 Thessalonians 2:11 - For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie
1 Kings 22:23 - So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours.

The bible is an awesome work.
Covering centuries of history and theology.
It was written from an oral tradition and preserved via meticulous copying over the millienium.
It is ONE of the ways in which God has chosen to reveal Himself to Us.
Written by many different authors, over a span of centuries, exposed to a progressive revelation from God.
Written By ancient man for ancient man and dealing with the issues that covered 1000's of years and many a varied cultural influence.
To look back on it with our 21st century eyes with anything but a desire to appeciate and understand it more is, well, silly.
It is NOT a science book or a how-to-book or even a book of world history and facts.
We must take the bible for what i t is and appreciate it for such.

2 reasons it isn't unquestionable and in-your-face factual. first, God wont overthrow our free will to choose him and return to his ways. He wants us to turn back to him, not have to lasso us and drag us back kicking and screaming. Second, If we honestly want to know the truth, we will seek it out and put it to the test. he doesn't want us to blindly go with the first thing we read or are told.


If you guys truly want to debate the truthfulness and irrefutability of the Bible you MUST use the true word of God. That means Hebrew Aramaic and Greek. No NIV no KJV no Latin Vulgate and so on for these are people's attempts to translate, interpret and in some cases purposely alter the original writtings. You also must understand the cultures in which these things were happening and how they understood things. I'm part of the body of Christ and i can find tons of things wrong with the New King James Version Bible, but nothing wrong with the word of God. likewise we should know a good amount about whatever is used to try and show contradiction in the word of God. If it's evolution, then we better know our biology, genetics and paleontology. If it's historical records then we better be up on our history. I guarantee that if you do this debate correctly, openly and honestly, that you will be led to the lord rather than a religion.

as for point 1. i will need to read it in full, but i believe the problem lies in the assumption that the saying "God was with Judah" meant he was fighting along side them on the battlefield or that he gave them magical powers to defeat the enemy. In all honesty it could simply mean God's favor was with them, but they were still flesh and blood people and if they couldn't do it they couldn't do it. It says the same thing in verse 22 "Likewise the house of Joseph went up against Bethel, and the Lord was with them". In this one Bethel is defeated with the help of a person who lived in the city. So judging by context I don't believe these verses are saying that God was physically or magically aiding them, but that his favor was with them.

point 2. I've heard some explanations for this and honestly I'm not sure which one represents the truth for sure. Remember there is a huge span of time from Genesis until John and you are also going from ancient Hebrew to Greek so accuracy of translation could be an issue. When i read the chapter that contains the OT verse you quoted i read that Jacob wrestled with a MAN who dislocated his hip with a touch, then blessed Jacob giving him a new name, Israel. So was it God in the form of a man? If so, no one has seen God in his true form as spirits aren't visible. Anyone who saw Jesus saw God, but not in spirit form. anyone who is a true believer has the holy spirit dwelling within, but has never seen him.

it's 2 am now.. to be continued or others can help out. bed time for me.

Steve wrote:
1. Chariots defeat God
In Jeremiah 32:27, Matthew 19:26 and many other places, the bible talks about how nothing is too hard for God and that "with God, all things are possible." Then Judges 1:19 says "The LORD was with the men of Judah. They took possession of the hill country, but they were unable to drive the people from the plains, because they had iron chariots."

I'm sure back in the day, Iron chariots were pretty awesome, but today it seems ridiculous that iron chariots would have any part in changing the actions of an army backed by God. Right? This is not taken out of context, I have asked several extremely religious people about this and even their study bibles state that there is no explanation for why chariots defeated God.

First of all, just because God is on their side doesn't mean he wants them to win EVERY battle. Remember that when the Hebrews went to Canaan, they didn't want to conquer it because the inhabitants looked so dangerous. It was their fault, not God's, that they had to wait. Second, the "people from the plains" are the Philistines, in Gaza, remember? Those people need to be around for when the time of the Kings comes. It is necessary for God to fulfill his plan.

2. In Genesis, Jacob says he has seen god face to face, but in John the bible states that nobody has seen God...
Genesis 32:30 - So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, "It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared."
John 1:18 - No one has ever seen God

This is because flesh cannot stand before the Most Holy. When Jacob sees God, he isn't seeing God revealed in his utter holiness, he is seeing a physical representation of the Lord revealing himself to mankind, so to say, the Son as opposed to the Father.

3. In Acts 1:24, God "know everyone's heart" and in Psalm 139, God can read minds, but in Genesis 22:12, Deuteronomy 8:2 and Deuteronomy 13:3 God tests people "in order to know what was in your heart" and states "Now I know that you fear God" (implying that he didn't know before hand). He knows everyone's heart, but has to test people to find out what's in their heart? That makes no sense.

Remember that it is not up to God to choose what people do. The reason why we are here at all is to make our own choices, and God "tests" people so that they themselves will choose God. He already knows what they will choose, but they still need to choose Him regardless. For Abraham, God knew that he was utterly devoted, right? I mean, come on, that is obvious. But God charged him to sacrifice his son so that Abraham would actively choose to follow the Lord instead of himself. When he did, the Lord spared Isaac.

4. God does not change:
James 1:17 - Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows
Numbers 23:19 - God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?

...then God changes
Jonah 3:10 - When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he had compassion and did not bring upon them the destruction he had threatened (direct contradiction of the end of the Numbers quote above)

Again, same argument as above. God threatened to destroy them, but when they actively chose to listen to God only then He would spare them. God did actually destroy Nineveh eventually.

2 Kings 20:1 ..."Put your house in order, because you are going to die; you will not recover" ...minutes later... 2 Kings 20:4-5 "I have heard your prayer and seen your tears; I will heal you"

Again, same argument! God sent Isaiah to tell Hezekiah exactly how is was: if he did not repent, he would truly die. But he DID repent, chose God, prayed, and God sent back his prophet to tell him that God had indeed heard his prayers.

Genesis 6:6 - The LORD was grieved that he had made man on earth, and his heart was filled with pain.

God can feel emotion. Of course he knew what man would do, but like any parent, even if he knew that it would happen, the pain is still felt when it does.

Genesis 8:20 - God regrets the flood and says "never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood"

In order to set his plan into action, God needed to judge the people before it got out of hand. Jesus actually did preach to these people in "Hell" while he was dead. And just because he knew what he had to do doesn't mean that it didn't make him sad.

5. Does god show favoritism?
Romans 2:11 - For God does not show favoritism
Romans 9:11-13 - Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad - in order that God's purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls - she was told, "The older will serve the younger" Just as it is written "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

God does not use different laws on people, all have the same fair choice. A Jew and a gentile both have the same way to get to the Lord. But it was part of God's plan to choose Jacob as the ruler because he could see into their hearts and knew the best choice.

6. Does god Lie?
Hebrews 6:18 - it is impossible for God to lie
2 Thessalonians 2:11 - For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie
1 Kings 22:23 - So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours.

For 2 Thessalonians:
There is a difference between hardening a heart that is already made up and telling a lie. For example, Pharaoh knew that he wanted not to let the Hebrews leave Egypt, had already made up his mind, but God hardened his heart (a.k.a. sending a "deluding influence"), an action which made his choice seem more firm, so that He could display his own power and the right choice to the Jews.
For 1 Kings:
Ahab needed to go out to battle. God needed to entice him to do so. But God did not lie, a "spirit" came to the prophets to entice Ahab by its own methods, whatever it chose.... to lie, to emphasize, whatever, it was not the Lord.

Is there a reason that God made the world, evolved it for billions of years, decided "THIS is a human.", started doing crazy stuff and made a book and now nothing crazy happens anymore. Nothing amazing goes on.

I've spoken in tongues.. but is that brainwashing? A result of delusion?
Meh
I don't like how our world doesn't have an active God anymore. It's hard to develop faith, and when I finally do, it's hard to keep it when the atheists tell me tons of stuff that go against it. Who's right?

Short1 wrote:I don't like how our world doesn't have an active God anymore.

Why do you think God isn't active anymore Short? From a Biblical prophecy point of view, we happen to live in a time when Israel is a nation. That happened in 1948. Seems to me God is very active molding the world, making it ready for His return.

Part of the Christian calling is having patience in our Creator. We evidently know that God still maintains and upholds the universe but as for showing up on the scene, it is simply not time. When the time comes, He will show up. That's a promise from scripture.

Zeph 3:8 Therefore wait ye upon me, saith the LORD, until the day that I rise up to the prey: for my determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them mine indignation, even all my fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy.

I would suggest you get professor John Lennox's new book, 'Gunning for God: Why the New Atheists Are Missing the Target' and read the first three chapters which are titled:

1. Are God and faith enemies of reason and science?
2. Is religion poisonous?
3. Is Atheism poisonous?

Dr. Lennox has had public debates with some of the world's most famous atheists including Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens and Peter Singer.

My other suggestion would be to spend more time with Christians and less time debating atheists. Many on this forum are former atheists who could tell you more about atheim than those who profess atheism ever could or would.

Now that I'm back on the site I'm doing better..

What I'm having trouble with is just simply not wanting to be Christian. I want to be atheist. I don't like the idea of 'being' forever, for one thing.
I thought I was going through a major worldview overhaul and it was exciting.. but now I'm stuck in the middle, and being honest, Christianity just looks different to me now. Not as fresh, truthful, or exciting. Not like it used to be.

Although reading the verse you posted kinda lifted me up a bit.

It's been back and forth for a while.

What I'm having trouble with is just simply not wanting to be Christian. I want to be atheist. I don't like the idea of 'being' forever, for one thing.

well, let us know of your enlightening experiences once you jump ship to atheism. I am sure it will be eye opening for you.

I thought I was going through a major worldview overhaul and it was exciting.. but now I'm stuck in the middle, and being honest, Christianity just looks different to me now. Not as fresh, truthful, or exciting. Not like it used to be.

This is because you are looking at the wrong things, try looking for God, rather then behavior and sciences.