Evidence for God from Science

Do you believe that being homosexual is wrong?
People are born heterosexual or homosexual. This is a big problem for people, and demonizes religion for an atheist. Most people i know will laugh at the idea of religion because of the lack of caring they show for homosexuality.
shouldn't Christians disregard the passages that deny homosexuals a right to love? Just like they disregard the passage that does not allow shellfish?

Cypher, you have a few misconceptions which I would like to help you clear up, first of all being your claim that "people are born heterosexual or homosexual". Do you possess any conclusive studies regarding the issue which lead you to make such a claim? If not, then I'm afraid we cannot definitively determine if such a genetic trait exists. In my personal opinion, I would believe that people are not born homosexual but rather come to homosexual tendencies based on environment and influences. It would also seem that such a trait would be routed out by natural selection because those born with the trait would have no desire to reproduce and thus would not be able to pass the trait on through offspring.

As Christians, we are followers of the Bible. Disregarding any portion would not make us Christians. Some ritualistic customs in the old testimant (such as the forbidding of eating shellfish) are no longer followed because as stated in the new testimant, after Christ's death, the old covenant (old testimant laws) were done away with.

Those who hate Homosexuals are not truly following Christ. Jesus loved and came to save the lost, homosexuals included. The difference was that Christ recognized homosexuality as wrong while still showing love to those captivated by such sin. Christians are not called to persecute sinners but to love them as Christ did while simultaneously spreading the good news of Jesus Christ's victory over sin and death.

Hopefully this clears up any difficulties for you

Trying to compare Old Testament dietary habits with God's purpose for sexual organs is a bit of a stretch. You are confusing two topics here, both of them very significant (Jewish law as it applies to Christianity and how God views homosexual behavior).

Lets focus on the second one for a moment. God created men and women as men and women to be mates for each other and fill the earth with offspring. Homosexuality, like adultery and all other manner of sexual sin, is a direct perversion of that process. Christianity would fail to mean anything if the solution to conflict was to surrender all ground on an issue. The real question is: If God is God, are you going to take His opinion on human sexual behavior, or the position of frail people? The Bible, as you acknowledge, is very clear on homosexuality, and thus God's position on it is very easily known. I'm sticking with His position.

Here is an interesting article which discusses the idea of a homosexual being born the way he is: http://www.godandscience.org/evolution/ ... ality.html

IMO
Homosexuality is based on both genetic makeup and/or social circumstances.

I like redheaded women. I like skinny women etc... I do not like men. That's my genetic makeup.
Just as a guy liking another guy is his genetic makeup.

As far as social circumstances go, everything you do,see,touch,hear,taste etc creates 'you.'
A kid that is raped is more prone to possibly live a life of homosexuality because of the trauma.

But, I also think it's a choice. I could go out and try to meet a obese bald woman.. If I chose to.. But that's not what I'm into...

Besides... If there's no genetic marker for being gay, how do you explain gay animals?

It shouldn't be wrong. Also why have a bunch of people on the earth to continuously reproduce when overpopulation is an extremely huge issue? Homosexual couples can adopt kids and give them an amazing life,especially if that child is suffering in a third world country. And if you're saying they're doing it only for pleasure and that's a "sin". Then never have sex unless it's for a baby and see how you feel. And don't even play with yourself,because apparently pleasure is a sin. Don't eat or enjoy food,because enjoying life is apparently a sin. I believe things should be called "sins" if in the long run your selfish actions hurt someone in the longrun or forces that person to do something they don't want to do. AKA; like forcing someone into something for your own pleasure. When two people care genuinely for each other,they should be able to express those feelings without being persecuted especially when they're NOT hurting anyone. When two people are intimate the brain ends up releasing oxytocin and vasopresin,two powerful horomones that leads to couples bonding.
Oxytocin reduces cravings. When scientists administered it to rodents who were addicted to cocaine, morphine, or heroin, the rats opted for less drugs, or showed fewer symptoms of withdrawal. (Kovacs, 1998) Oxytocin also reduces cravings for sweets. (Billings, 2006)
Oxytocin calms. A single rat injected with oxytocin has a calming effect on a cage full of anxious rats. (Agren, 2002)
Oxytocin increases sexual receptivity and counteracts impotence. (Pedersen, C.A., 2002), (Arletti, 1997)
Oxytocin counteracts the effects of cortisol, the stress hormone. (Legros, 2003) Less stress means increased immunity and faster recovery.
Oxytocin appears be a major reason that SSRIs (like Prozac®) ease depression, perhaps because high levels of cortisol are the chief culprits in depression and anxiety disorders. (Uvnas-Moberg, 1999)

cypher wrote:Do you believe that being homosexual is wrong?
People are born heterosexual or homosexual. This is a big problem for people, and demonizes religion for an atheist. Most people i know will laugh at the idea of religion because of the lack of caring they show for homosexuality.
shouldn't Christians disregard the passages that deny homosexuals a right to love? Just like they disregard the passage that does not allow shellfish?

You confuse Leviticus law with new covenant law. It states very clearly in 1Corinthians 6:9 that homosexuality is immoral. Also, in genesis, god defines marriage as between a MAN AND WOMEN. Adam and eve not Adam and Steve.

The new covenant does not ban shellfish, but the reason some Christians quote Leviticus 18:22 is because it translates to "it is disgusting" and god does not change so thus god still believes it to be disgusting, which it is.

Let me paint you a picture that you need to, but do not want to think about.

In sodomy the large intestine gets pulled out, feces spills out, semen and feces mix, diseases are very common. Now, do you state that this is moral and natural?

We do not oppose homosexuals holding hands on a street, more of the sexual acts (sodomy and sexual immorality both banned in NT). That is why we oppose homosexuality.

Another thing to remember, we are just as opposed to heterosexual sexual immorality/ sodomy as we are to homosexuality. We are against the social naturalization these and thus homosexuality goes under the category we are opposed to.

CaptainBeatDown wrote:It shouldn't be wrong. Also why have a bunch of people on the earth to continuously reproduce when overpopulation is an extremely huge issue? Homosexual couples can adopt kids and give them an amazing life,especially if that child is suffering in a third world country. And if you're saying they're doing it only for pleasure and that's a "sin". Then never have sex unless it's for a baby and see how you feel. And don't even play with yourself,because apparently pleasure is a sin. Don't eat or enjoy food,because enjoying life is apparently a sin. I believe things should be called "sins" if in the long run your selfish actions hurt someone in the longrun or forces that person to do something they don't want to do. AKA; like forcing someone into something for your own pleasure. When two people care genuinely for each other,they should be able to express those feelings without being persecuted especially when they're NOT hurting anyone. When two people are intimate the brain ends up releasing oxytocin and vasopresin,two powerful horomones that leads to couples bonding.
Oxytocin reduces cravings. When scientists administered it to rodents who were addicted to cocaine, morphine, or heroin, the rats opted for less drugs, or showed fewer symptoms of withdrawal. (Kovacs, 1998) Oxytocin also reduces cravings for sweets. (Billings, 2006)
Oxytocin calms. A single rat injected with oxytocin has a calming effect on a cage full of anxious rats. (Agren, 2002)
Oxytocin increases sexual receptivity and counteracts impotence. (Pedersen, C.A., 2002), (Arletti, 1997)
Oxytocin counteracts the effects of cortisol, the stress hormone. (Legros, 2003) Less stress means increased immunity and faster recovery.
Oxytocin appears be a major reason that SSRIs (like Prozac®) ease depression, perhaps because high levels of cortisol are the chief culprits in depression and anxiety disorders. (Uvnas-Moberg, 1999)

Wow.....Soo many misconceptions here.

1) Sinful pleasure is a sin, homosexuality is sinful thus is a sin. We have plenty of debates on whether masturbation is a sin or not
2) Homosexuality leads to diseases, it is unclean.
3) Children raised in homosexual house holds are prone to ridicule and will never have the joy of experiencing a mother and father. I'm sure it is a very awkward for them. And the homosexual adoption rate in 3rd world countries is 1/100,000 couples, not a very strong argument.
4) The reason we withhold pleasure (no sex until marriage) is because we are devoted to god and wish to show him our devotion to each other and love each other. The reason why most couples divorce is because they married because the sex was good, sex gets old, so does the relationship. This is why god said to wait, fall in love with the person first.
5) The brain also releases oxycotin in moments of lust, I’m sure you know that as well.


In conclusion we oppose it because god says it is immoral, we are opposed to all immoral sex homo and hetero, we do not hate gays, we disagree with the lifestyle.

I know a few homosexuals and NONE of them CHOSE to be that way, but they did CHOOSE to live that way, if one believes that one can choose sexual orientation.
I do NOT agree with homosexuality but I have seen what they have been through and as one of them said to me from his bed after being beaten by some people for being gay a few years ago, " How can anyone believe I choose to get live this way" If I could be hetro I would change right now".
It's a very difficult thing to see the people that are victims of hate because of their sexual orientation, to understand what they go through.
Some say since it exists in nature then ot should be ok, but lots of horrid things exist in nature and are NOT ok so simply because something is natural for animals doesn't make it right for humans.
And yet I have seen the love between two gay people and it is real and it is love.
I don't hate them ( gays) or homosexuality but the view of homosexuality is quite clear and yet, if we are to find that one is born with it are we to view it as a "birth defect" ?
I truly do not know HOW I truly feel about this issue.

PaulSacramento wrote: And yet I have seen the love between two gay people and it is real and it is love. I truly do not know HOW I truly feel about this issue.

Paul, if I may... I believe you're struggling because you fundamentally understand that being gay is not a choice (I don't care what the articles say on this site about "inconclusiveness" - it's hogwash, which you know as well as I do) as you've met gay people and talked to gay people and understand that they were all born gay. 100% of them. (Any statistics on marriage are irrelevant, as many gay people - particularly gay Christians - choose to go against nature and marry straight folks out of fear of discrimination from their own community. Which is just so, so sad.) What you're struggling with is the fact that you're using your brain, and your brain is telling you that despite your faith and the book that you believe in, discriminating against people for something they can't help is inherently WRONG. What if the Bible adamantly stated that left-handedness is a sin? We clearly know that being left-handed isn't a choice... so would Christians still have the "love the sinner, hate the sin" mentality?

Look, I'm not a Christian but I will will always be in support of freedom of religion. If you're a Christian (in the literal sense of doing unto others, leading a good, charitable life, etc.) then good for you! You have my wholehearted blessing. But it's 2011. The world is completely different than in was in 30 C.E., and to pretend that we can still live by Iron Age societal rules is not only foolish but short-sighted. Bigotry is wrong, period. I don't care if it says it's ok in The Bible or in Jane Eyre. We fundamentally understand right from wrong as humans who strive to 'do onto others.' If Christians want their religion to thrive in the 21st Century, and be relevant to anyone who wasn't indoctrinated from infancy, they need to learn how to adapt to the times. And right now that means understanding the gay community and being accepting, because there's no doubt that that's what Jesus would have done. This 'pesky' issue isn't going to go away. There were gay people in Jesus' time, and there are gay people now - they're just finally having the courage to say out loud what they've always been. Keep struggling with this, Paul, because it means that you're thinking for yourself. I wish more Christians would do the same.

FrecklesNYC wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote: And yet I have seen the love between two gay people and it is real and it is love. I truly do not know HOW I truly feel about this issue.

Paul, if I may... I believe you're struggling because you fundamentally understand that being gay is not a choice (I don't care what the articles say on this site about "inconclusiveness" - it's hogwash, which you know as well as I do) as you've met gay people and talked to gay people and understand that they were all born gay. 100% of them. (Any statistics on marriage are irrelevant, as many gay people - particularly gay Christians - choose to go against nature and marry straight folks out of fear of discrimination from their own community. Which is just so, so sad.) What you're struggling with is the fact that you're using your brain, and your brain is telling you that despite your faith and the book that you believe in, discriminating against people for something they can't help is inherently WRONG. What if the Bible adamantly stated that left-handedness is a sin? We clearly know that being left-handed isn't a choice... so would Christians still have the "love the sinner, hate the sin" mentality?

Look, I'm not a Christian but I will will always be in support of freedom of religion. If you're a Christian (in the literal sense of doing unto others, leading a good, charitable life, etc.) then good for you! You have my wholehearted blessing. But it's 2011. The world is completely different than in was in 30 C.E., and to pretend that we can still live by Iron Age societal rules is not only foolish but short-sighted. Bigotry is wrong, period. I don't care if it says it's ok in The Bible or in Jane Eyre. We fundamentally understand right from wrong as humans who strive to 'do onto others.' If Christians want their religion to thrive in the 21st Century, and be relevant to anyone who wasn't indoctrinated from infancy, they need to learn how to adapt to the times. And right now that means understanding the gay community and being accepting, because there's no doubt that that's what Jesus would have done. This 'pesky' issue isn't going to go away. There were gay people in Jesus' time, and there are gay people now - they're just finally having the courage to say out loud what they've always been. Keep struggling with this, Paul, because it means that you're thinking for yourself. I wish more Christians would do the same.

I applaud this post. Even if one believes that a homosexual lifestyle is sinful, they need to understand the struggle they are going through. You can't just dismiss them as wicked people who need to repent and be straight, it is nowhere NEAR that cut and dry.

FrecklesNYC wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote: And yet I have seen the love between two gay people and it is real and it is love. I truly do not know HOW I truly feel about this issue.

Paul, if I may... I believe you're struggling because you fundamentally understand that being gay is not a choice (I don't care what the articles say on this site about "inconclusiveness" - it's hogwash, which you know as well as I do) as you've met gay people and talked to gay people and understand that they were all born gay. 100% of them. (Any statistics on marriage are irrelevant, as many gay people - particularly gay Christians - choose to go against nature and marry straight folks out of fear of discrimination from their own community. Which is just so, so sad.) What you're struggling with is the fact that you're using your brain, and your brain is telling you that despite your faith and the book that you believe in, discriminating against people for something they can't help is inherently WRONG. What if the Bible adamantly stated that left-handedness is a sin? We clearly know that being left-handed isn't a choice... so would Christians still have the "love the sinner, hate the sin" mentality?

Look, I'm not a Christian but I will will always be in support of freedom of religion. If you're a Christian (in the literal sense of doing unto others, leading a good, charitable life, etc.) then good for you! You have my wholehearted blessing. But it's 2011. The world is completely different than in was in 30 C.E., and to pretend that we can still live by Iron Age societal rules is not only foolish but short-sighted. Bigotry is wrong, period. I don't care if it says it's ok in The Bible or in Jane Eyre. We fundamentally understand right from wrong as humans who strive to 'do onto others.' If Christians want their religion to thrive in the 21st Century, and be relevant to anyone who wasn't indoctrinated from infancy, they need to learn how to adapt to the times. And right now that means understanding the gay community and being accepting, because there's no doubt that that's what Jesus would have done. This 'pesky' issue isn't going to go away. There were gay people in Jesus' time, and there are gay people now - they're just finally having the courage to say out loud what they've always been. Keep struggling with this, Paul, because it means that you're thinking for yourself. I wish more Christians would do the same.

I think you have a couple of misunderstandings here. First of all, being a Christian is not 'doing unto others, leading a good, charitable life'. Its being a follower of Jesus Christ. Very different stuff here; you're confusing the outward with the inward.

The world is not fundamentally different than it was 2000 years ago. It is the same world, with the same types of people and the same problems. The technology and fads have changed, but nothing else. You could find many parallels between modern cities and ancient cities in the Greek and Roman worlds, and you'd be surprised by how consistent the two are. In addition, we still very much do live by "Iron Age" (actually more ancient) rules in our society. Things like Rule of Law have been established for thousands of years. Should these also be relegated to antiquity as you try to do? The ancient world has more to say about the modern world than the moderns do because it does so more objectively. I'd stop condemning and start listening.

Fundamentally, the thing I disagree with you about is your argument against the Christian view of homosexuality. I wouldn't expect you to agree with your worldview, but you have to understand that the natural thing to do in life is not always the right thing to do. It is often natural for a man to lust after a woman who is not his wife and commit adultery. It is often natural for a man to hate someone else for what they've done until they actively seek to cause the person pain. These things are totally natural and totally evil. Now, in a purely natural world, there is no reason to condemn these actions over other actions (homsexuality included). After all, everything happens deterministically in such a world and you can't fix blame on anything. It is an 'outdated, Iron-Age concept'. However, if you believe there are things that are not purely natural and that things like adultery and cruelty are morally wrong, you can see where the Christian is coming from when he says 'regardless of whether homosexuality is natural, it is morally wrong'.

Christianity does not seek to damn people but to save people. A truly Christian view of homosexuality is not ignorance, but an effort to point out its error and help people overcome it (and I find many parallels here with lust, which also often requires those same things to overcome).

Seraph wrote: I applaud this post. Even if one believes that a homosexual lifestyle is sinful, they need to understand the struggle they are going through. You can't just dismiss them as wicked people who need to repent and be straight, it is nowhere NEAR that cut and dry.

I agree with the first part, but not quite as much with the second. All people are wicked and fallen; we all struggle with sin. But that doesn't mean we ignore it and leave it alone because it isn't 'cut and dry'. Sin is the most manipulative thing in the universe... capable of destroying human beings from the inside out before we ever see it coming. Sin is VERY cut and dry, and we need to acknowledge it for what it is and oppose it, because when we don't, it gains ground that is not recovered easily. But, as you say, we need to understand that it is a struggle for people and that we aren't opposing people themselves.

Fundamentally, the thing I disagree with you about is your argument against the Christian view of homosexuality. I wouldn't expect you to agree with your worldview, but you have to understand that the natural thing to do in life is not always the right thing to do. It is often natural for a man to lust after a woman who is not his wife and commit adultery. It is often natural for a man to hate someone else for what they've done until they actively seek to cause the person pain. These things are totally natural and totally evil. Now, in a purely natural world, there is no reason to condemn these actions over other actions (homsexuality included). After all, everything happens deterministically in such a world and you can't fix blame on anything. It is an 'outdated, Iron-Age concept'. However, if you believe there are things that are not purely natural and that things like adultery and cruelty are morally wrong, you can see where the Christian is coming from when he says 'regardless of whether homosexuality is natural, it is morally wrong'.

I feel that the difference between lust and homosexuality is that lust is a choice and homosexuality is not. People's brains are hardwired to be sexually attracted to others, but they are not hardwired to lust as there is a difference between the two. Talking with homosexuals, I strongly think their brain is hardwired to be attracted exclusively to the same sex. To me, since God has created us and our brains, this suggests that God is not responsible for us having lust and many other sins that are completely within our realm of choice rather than hardwired, but suggests that God does hardwire homosexual attraction into certain individuals. This is why I have to stop short of believing that a monogamous loving non-lustful relationship between two homosexuals is sinful. What negative consequences would that relationship have? I think our omnipotent omniscient all-loving God usually has a profound reason for declaring something to be sin beyond "He's grossed out by it".

Seraph wrote:

Fundamentally, the thing I disagree with you about is your argument against the Christian view of homosexuality. I wouldn't expect you to agree with your worldview, but you have to understand that the natural thing to do in life is not always the right thing to do. It is often natural for a man to lust after a woman who is not his wife and commit adultery. It is often natural for a man to hate someone else for what they've done until they actively seek to cause the person pain. These things are totally natural and totally evil. Now, in a purely natural world, there is no reason to condemn these actions over other actions (homsexuality included). After all, everything happens deterministically in such a world and you can't fix blame on anything. It is an 'outdated, Iron-Age concept'. However, if you believe there are things that are not purely natural and that things like adultery and cruelty are morally wrong, you can see where the Christian is coming from when he says 'regardless of whether homosexuality is natural, it is morally wrong'.

I feel that the difference between lust and homosexuality is that lust is a choice and homosexuality is not. People's brains are hardwired to be sexually attracted to others, but they are not hardwired to lust as there is a difference between the two. Talking with homosexuals, I strongly think their brain is hardwired to be attracted exclusively to the same sex. To me, since God has created us and our brains, this suggests that God is not responsible for us having lust and many other sins that are completely within our realm of choice rather than hardwired, but suggests that God does hardwire homosexual attraction into certain individuals. This is why I have to stop short of declaring that a monogamous loving non-lustful relationship between two homosexuals is sinful.

Your suggesting that homosexuality is okay, but lust is not because you feel one is hardwired and one is not? Are you sure this is the same God who said:

"You shall not lie with a male as with a woman: it is an abomination" (Lev 18:22).
"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall be put to death: their blood is upon them" (Lev 20:13).

Or the same God who Paul served when he wrote:

"God gave them up to degrading passions. Their women exchanged natural intercourse for unnatural, and in the same way also the men, giving up natural intercourse with women, were consumed with passion for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in their own persons the due penalty for their error" (Rom 1:26-27).

"Do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! Fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, sodomites, thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, robbers - none of these will inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Cor 6:9-10).

I see nowhere in Scripture that suggests homosexuality is okay, but many places where it is condemned. Do you have Scriptural support of homosexuality as an acceptable Christian practice?

Also, I don't quite understand how you can pick and choose different sins ans 'hardwired' and 'not hardwired'. What are you using to base these opinions on?