Evidence for God from Science

So we all know that Pres. Obama is requesting that Israel give up its claims on West Bank and the Gaza Strip. But I was wondering what all of your positions on the matter were. Do you think:


- Israel should be one complete state either governed by religious law (by the Jews or Palestinians), or inhabited by only one ethnic group (Jews or Palestinians)

- Israel should be one state governed by democracy (even with a Palestinian majority)

- Israel should be divided into Jewish and Palestinian states (more or less land to the Palestinians?)

- Israel should be one country with limited, small area or temporary self-rule (Palestinians or Jews) in some areas

- A different proposal?


If you choose a position, why do you think it should be so? Unfortunately, I live in an area of the country that is so utterly liberal, that if a school kid says "I believe Jesus Christ is the way to be saved," or, "I do not support abortion," or even, "I think Fox news is a legitimate news source," the other kids will start laughing at him, calling him prejudiced, or even saying "Well, I guess we can still be friends, even if you believe in all that magic stuff." Obviously, it can be really hard to get balanced opinions when you live in such a place. So, I'd really appreciate some of your views!

kmr wrote:So we all know that Pres. Obama is requesting that Israel give up its claims on West Bank and the Gaza Strip. But I was wondering what all of your positions on the matter were.

Thanks for bringing this up kmr. There are many many reasons why Israel should not give up their land.

Under ANY circumstances should the Israelis give up their land for peace that the Arabs CANNOT provide. The Arabs WILL NEVER be able to provide peace because the moderate Arabs CANNOT control the extremists who live among them. They say that they will provide peace, but as soon as the Israelis give up land, the Arabs use that land to bomb Israeli cities. If you want proof, just look what happened to Israel when they gave up their settlements in the Gaza strip in 2005. And now they want to bring these terrorists groups closer to huge Israeli cities like Tel Aviv? That is just stupid...

Don't listen to the liberal media! They are not true liberals but are indirectly aiding the terrorists who not only wish to destroy Israel but America as well!!

Any country or leader who supports this so-called "Palestinian" state are indirectly supporting TERRORISTS!

It is utterly stupid to break up Israel... The people that wish to do that are FOOLS. They not only want to divide Israel, they want to blow it off the map...

Hey hey.. hoe hoe.. Obama and his terrorist supporters have got to go...

VOTE OBAMA OUT!!

You forgot this option

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIEeiDjdUuU

Unfortunately, Arab leaders that wish to create peace with Israel, such as the late Anwar Sadat, don't seem to last very long. I hope differences between the Israelis and Palestinians can be reconciled, but with the young (e.g. 4 years old) in Gaza (fortunately not in Palestine) being indoctrined to hate Israel by a high pitched Mickey Mouse look-alike, I do not have high hopes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomorrow%27s_Pioneers

If we keep promoting a separatist agenda then peace will likely never come. There needs to be stability in the region. Now I'm not saying I have the answers, but the status quo will, somewhat inevitably, get us nowhere. Something to think on for those who wish Israel to remain entrenched. Yes the Palestinians are equally entrenched, perhaps even more so, but something's got to give. And I think we know that it aint gonna come from the Palestinians' side! Does history teach us nothing?

Let's hope the recent Arab awakening will eventually have a positive impact on future peace negotiations but I won't hold my breath for too long.

Isreal deserves more than it has right now for what the jews went through during the halucaust.

Lets not forget that palistine supported the nazis and was the only area in the middle east in which the germans allowed them join the waffen SS due to their similarities with hatred towards jews.

Murray wrote:Isreal deserves more than it has right now for what the jews went through during the halucaust.

Lets not forget that palistine supported the nazis and was the only area in the middle east in which the germans allowed them join the waffen SS due to their similarities with hatred towards jews.

And that somehow justifies 2 million refugees, half of whom in their own land, for the past 60 years? Don't get me wrong, I am an ardent supporter of Israel and its right to exist but I am an equally ardent supporter of an independent Palestine and its citizens' right of return to the new land, however demarcated it will be.

Folks I just returned from Israel and I wasn't impressed with the way we were treated by the Arabs while we were there. In fact they gave us death threats if we didn't buy from their shops..

If you want to know how the Arabs will treat Jerusalem just take a look at this photo I took while I was in the Arab quarter. An open garbage dump....

If they think Jerusalem is one their holy sites, they sure weren't treating it that way.

Picture taken from the Arab quarter in Jerusalem.

Gman wrote:Folks I just returned from Israel and I wasn't impressed with the way we were treated by the Arabs while we were there. In fact they gave us death threats if we didn't buy from their shops..

If you want to know how the Arabs will treat Jerusalem just take a look at this photo I took while I was in the Arab quarter. An open garbage dump....

If they think Jerusalem is one their holy sites, they sure weren't treating it that way.

To them it's occupied land G. But I understand what you're saying, Palestinians do make a habit of trashing wherever they land. They sure made a mess of my country.

And welcome back G, hope you had a great time.

Byblos wrote:To them it's occupied land G. But I understand what you're saying, Palestinians do make a habit of trashing wherever they land. They sure made a mess of my country.

Yes, they might think that it is occupied but the archeological evidence of Hebrew artifacts I saw throughout the country of Israel refutes that claim thoroughly. In fact, it really wasn't the Israelis who drove the Arabs out. It was Arabs with loud speakers on top of trucks that drove Arabs out of the country. The remaining Arabs were simply absorbed into the Israeli culture and are benefiting greatly from that today.

I talked to a Sargent major (our tour guide) of the 67 war who gave me all the facts about this. Also in many cases the Arabs there were happy to be apart of Israel and completely surrendered to the Israeli forces. They knew that they would getting a better life. The media needs to talk to the Arab Israelis to get the full picture. They are often forgot in the picture and have a voice too.

My best advice for American politics it to simply leave Israel alone and let Israel do it's own thing. There is no need to bring attention to that area right now. Peace is already there with a few skirmishes on the borders here and there. But as soon and they start negotiating land for peace it comes with heavy heavy consequences. So my advice is to do nothing right now. Leave it alone, they are ok.. There is no one with a magic wand to correct the issue except God of course.

Byblos wrote:And welcome back G, hope you had a great time.

Thanks John.. Glad to be back and in one piece.

Gman wrote:My best advice for American politics it to simply leave Israel alone and let Israel do it's own thing. There is no need to bring attention to that area right now. Peace is already there with a few skirmishes on the borders here and there. But as soon and they start negotiating land for peace it comes with heavy heavy consequences. So my advice is to do nothing right now. Leave it alone, they are ok.. There is no one with a magic wand to correct the issue except God of course.

In the mean time, what happens to the millions of refugees outside of Israel who are suffering greatly and who cannot be absorbed locally, especially in Lebanon where they will heavily tip the scale against the already minority Christians?

Byblos wrote:

Gman wrote:My best advice for American politics it to simply leave Israel alone and let Israel do it's own thing. There is no need to bring attention to that area right now. Peace is already there with a few skirmishes on the borders here and there. But as soon and they start negotiating land for peace it comes with heavy heavy consequences. So my advice is to do nothing right now. Leave it alone, they are ok.. There is no one with a magic wand to correct the issue except God of course.

In the mean time, what happens to the millions of refugees outside of Israel who are suffering greatly and who cannot be absorbed locally, especially in Lebanon where they will heavily tip the scale against the already minority Christians?

I believe they are simply being used as pawns.. They could easily be absorbed into the neighboring Arab states but the rich Arab governments refused them citizenship and then used their plight as a propaganda weapon against Israel. Their main goal is to dismantle the Jewish state by using these refugees as pawns.

By that way, for the record, it has been Israel that has contributed most of the funds and or services to these refugee camps.

In 1948, 160,000 Arabs who lived within Israeli borders accepted Israel's invitation to choose peace and become Israeli citizens... The others could have also chose this direction, but the Arabs told them to fight or leave. Those who didn't fight against the Israeli forces were not fired upon and stayed in Israel.

Again, it was the Arab leaders who have been the biggest enemies of the Arab people... Unfortunately.

Gman wrote:

Byblos wrote:In the mean time, what happens to the millions of refugees outside of Israel who are suffering greatly and who cannot be absorbed locally, especially in Lebanon where they will heavily tip the scale against the already minority Christians?

I believe they are simply being used as pawns.. They could easily be absorbed into the neighboring Arab states but the rich Arab governments refused them citizenship and then used their plight as a propaganda weapon against Israel. Their main goal is to dismantle the Jewish state by using these refugees as pawns.

By that way, for the record, it has been Israel that has contributed most of the funds and or services to these refugee camps.

In 1948, 160,000 Arabs who lived within Israeli borders accepted Israel's invitation to choose peace and become Israeli citizens... The others could have also chose this direction, but the Arabs told them to fight or leave. Those who didn't fight against the Israeli forces were not fired upon and stayed in Israel.

Again, it was the Arab leaders who have been the biggest enemies of the Arab people... Unfortunately.

I don't dispute any of that G. Of course it was the Arabs who told the Palestinians to leave, promising a quick return. There's no argument there. But there is a real humanitarian catastrophe that no one wants deal with from either side and that is the plight of those refugees outside of Israel and the occupied territories. I look at Lebanon not only because I've lived the situation but also because it illustrates very well what the problem is. People from the outside look at the atrocious conditions of the refugee camps in Lebanon and think it is Lebanon's fault. We don't give them rights (of limited citizenship, employment, land or business ownership, etc. etc). The truth is we can't because the moment we do, a million Palestinian refugees (the vast majority of whom are Muslims) become assimilated in Lebanese society and economy and Lebanon becomes a majority Muslim by a factor of 5 to 1. That is the very thing Israel is trying to prevent by not allowing the return of refugees to Israel because it will no longer be a Jewish state.

We have arcane, discriminatory laws in Lebanon still on the books such as a woman not having the right to give her foreign husband or their children Lebanese citizenship. People in the west look at that and cannot believe in this day and age, in a country that proclaims itself democratic and progressive, would still have such laws but the truth is these kinds of laws are absolutely necessary, precisely to prevent the absorption of the Palestinian refugees in Lebanese society. Otherwise Muslim Lebanese women will marry Palestinian men and naturalize them and their children. So you see there are major, major implications whose boundaries are not confined to the plight of the Palestinians in Israel or the occupied territories. It goes much deeper than that. All of that to say that keeping the status quo is untenable.

Byblos wrote: I don't dispute any of that G. Of course it was the Arabs who told the Palestinians to leave, promising a quick return. There's no argument there. But there is a real humanitarian catastrophe that no one wants deal with from either side and that is the plight of those refugees outside of Israel and the occupied territories. I look at Lebanon not only because I've lived the situation but also because it illustrates very well what the problem is. People from the outside look at the atrocious conditions of the refugee camps in Lebanon and think it is Lebanon's fault. We don't give them rights (of limited citizenship, employment, land or business ownership, etc. etc). The truth is we can't because the moment we do, a million Palestinian refugees (the vast majority of whom are Muslims) become assimilated in Lebanese society and economy and Lebanon becomes a majority Muslim by a factor of 5 to 1. That is the very thing Israel is trying to prevent by not allowing the return of refugees to Israel because it will no longer be a Jewish state.

We have arcane, discriminatory laws in Lebanon still on the books such as a woman not having the right to give her foreign husband or their children Lebanese citizenship. People in the west look at that and cannot believe in this day and age, in a country that proclaims itself democratic and progressive, would still have such laws but the truth is these kinds of laws are absolutely necessary, precisely to prevent the absorption of the Palestinian refugees in Lebanese society. Otherwise Muslim Lebanese women will marry Palestinian men and naturalize them and their children. So you see there are major, major implications whose boundaries are not confined to the plight of the Palestinians in Israel or the occupied territories. It goes much deeper than that. All of that to say that keeping the status quo is untenable.

Thanks John... While I can understand that from the Christian Lebanese perspective, I don't understand that from the Muslim Lebanese perspective who are already the majority there in Lebanon. To me if they were true Muslims, they would be opening their arms to their Palestinian (Muslim) brothers to become one voice. They don't seem to be doing that but would rather use them as pawns it seems...

Gman wrote:Thanks John... While I can understand that from the Christian Lebanese perspective, I don't understand that from the Muslim Lebanese perspective who are already the majority there in Lebanon. To me if they were true Muslims, they would be opening their arms to their Palestinian (Muslim) brothers to become one voice. They don't seem to be doing that but would rather use them as pawns it seems...

They are united in (blinded by) a common cause: hate for Israel.