Evidence for God from Science

Was God thoughtless in his timeless state? Or did he have 1 thought for eternity till he chose to actualise the act of creating?

If the second stance is true, then since there are 3 persons in God having their own will and mind seperate from the other, will each 3 have a different thought or the exact same thought?

What do you guys think?

God bless

Wrong assumption to start with.

God can't be thoughtless. All members of the Godhead have the same will. They do not contradict, that is what makes our God an only God and we differ from people who worship more than one God, polytheists.

God bless

Im not denying that they do not have the same will. In connection to that statement though why does the 1st person of the Trinity have greater authority over the other 2 then? What use could that possibly serve in the Trinity?

A question that I've been pondering,"Can the 3 different persons of the Trinty have different wants ( not needs) than eachother in moral neautral areas? "

Yes i agree that God is not thoughtless but then that leads to God having 1 thought through out his timeless state, although we are talking about God here so would it not be safe to assume that God's thought could incapsulate everything in the future and about everything including his plans and everydetail of creation - absolutely everything, internal an external of himself both in his past timeless state and current temporal state?

God bless

Nobody has anything to say?

I am confused, are you trying to put human limitations on a non-human, superiour being?
Or are you just curious how the relationship between God and Christ, united by the HS, works?
Time as WE KNOW it doesn't apply to God so our perception of time applies even less.

Why do you keep referring to the three aspects of God as 'three different persons"? They are three parts of one thing, Him.
I have a body, and a soul. Am I two different people?

PaulSacramento wrote:I am confused, are you trying to put human limitations on a non-human, superiour being?
Or are you just curious how the relationship between God and Christ, united by the HS, works?
Time as WE KNOW it doesn't apply to God so our perception of time applies even less.

Huh? What human limitations? I don't think ive stated any limitations on God. Yes, i am curious of how the relationship works, especially why the Father has greater authority. But could it just be that the Father has greater authority when Jesus became man ( Godman)?

rainagain wrote:Why do you keep referring to the three aspects of God as 'three different persons"? They are three parts of one thing, Him.
I have a body, and a soul. Am I two different people?

Thats not what the doctrine of the Trinity is. The Triune God is 3 distinct persons- 1 God. Umm like 3 minds-1 body to put it in common terms.

CeT-To wrote:Im not denying that they do not have the same will. In connection to that statement though why does the 1st person of the Trinity have greater authority over the other 2 then? What use could that possibly serve in the Trinity?

I don't see this as detrimental to the Trinity. God having greater authority does not mean he exercises any such authority over and above the other two members of the Godhead; God the Father having the overall authority doesn't negate the equality of the three since this overall authority is not exercised against the will of the other two members. God's overall authority is in line with the rest of the Trinity and I doubt it is an issue, since the will of the Father is the will of the Son and the Holy spirit. Hence we have complete equality and unity.

CeT-To wrote:A question that I've been pondering,"Can the 3 different persons of the Trinty have different wants ( not needs) than eachother in moral neautral areas? "

I very much doubt it.

CeT-To wrote:IYes i agree that God is not thoughtless but then that leads to God having 1 thought through out his timeless state, although we are talking about God here so would it not be safe to assume that God's thought could incapsulate everything in the future and about everything including his plans and everydetail of creation - absolutely everything, internal an external of himself both in his past timeless state and current temporal state?

Tell me more about God having one thought - what does this one thought constitute?

Danny

DannyM wrote:

CeT-To wrote:Im not denying that they do not have the same will. In connection to that statement though why does the 1st person of the Trinity have greater authority over the other 2 then? What use could that possibly serve in the Trinity?

I don't see this as detrimental to the Trinity. God having greater authority does not mean he exercises any such authority over and above the other two members of the Godhead; God the Father having the overall authority doesn't negate the equality of the three since this overall authority is not exercised against the will of the other two members. God's overall authority is in line with the rest of the Trinity and I doubt it is an issue, since the will of the Father is the will of the Son and the Holy spirit. Hence we have complete equality and unity.

CeT-To wrote:A question that I've been pondering,"Can the 3 different persons of the Trinty have different wants ( not needs) than eachother in moral neautral areas? "

I very much doubt it.

CeT-To wrote:IYes i agree that God is not thoughtless but then that leads to God having 1 thought through out his timeless state, although we are talking about God here so would it not be safe to assume that God's thought could incapsulate everything in the future and about everything including his plans and everydetail of creation - absolutely everything, internal an external of himself both in his past timeless state and current temporal state?

Tell me more about God having one thought - what does this one thought constitute?

Danny

Hi Danny,

Oh im not negating the equality in the Trinity~ definitely not. Hebrews 2:9 states that Jesus made himself a little lower than even the angels but this i presume is only while being on Earth. But is it still the case now even tho Jesus is glorified and he is still the Godman ?

Yes i doubt they can have different wants too but why not? ( in moral neautral areas, for example the Father wants a blue cow but the Son wants a red cow LOL)

If they have the same will which im presuming is the same as desires, even on moral neautral areas, then i think this means all 3 persons had the same 1 thought for eternity till the Trinity chose to put everything into action. Like i said in my previous post, it could be the case that God's thought would constitute everything~literally everything, both in the future temporal time and in his timeless state causally prior his first creation or action. But the ideas in this thought would not be infinite since to my knowledge an absolute infinite has no beginning or end, rather it could just be an uncountable number of ideas ( to us its uncountable) this is not to say that it has an ending but that it is impossible to count to infinity. Although, I think if God thought successively one thought after another then he would enter a temporal state even though he had created nothing at all but in both these explanation he would have had 1 thought to start with for all eternity since the Triune God cannot be thoughtless.

I'm not sure if I'm correct but thats what i think atm, im no expert with the types of infinites, neither with philosophy of time. Even so, this is a hard idea to grasp that God could have 1 thought as long as God existed! Yet i think it can be explained in the fact that causation and effect can be simultaneous. For example i herd one ( which i think originates from Kant) that goes like this, imagine a heavy ball sitting on top of a pillow, the pillow has a depression on its surface because of the curvature of the heavy ball. Now the ball and the pillow could have existed from eternity past so that the ball was always on the pillow but nonetheless the depression of the pillow is caused by the heavy ball. So the heavy ball is the efficient cause of the depression upon the pillow, likewise God is the efficient cause for his own thought yet both have existed as long as eachother because God cannot be thoughtless.

Any thoughts?

God bless!

Hello Bro

CeT-To wrote:Hebrews 2:9 states that Jesus made himself a little lower than even the angels but this i presume is only while being on Earth. But is it still the case now even tho Jesus is glorified and he is still the Godman ?

Now I'm terrible with my Bible and I'm gonna smack myself. Got an NIV Study Bible coming soon and it can't come quick enough; been ploughing through the King James and, while beautiful it does my head in. Jesus was 'lower' on earth for sure, having lowered Himself...LOL. Jesus is God and equal with the Father. The Father must by definition be the 'greater', but I don't see this as being logically incompatible with the Equality of the Trinity. Do you think that one of the Three could exercise a greater omnipotence over the other? Greater omniscience or greater Love? I see total and utter Unity and Oneness.

CeT-To wrote:Yes i doubt they can have different wants too but why not? ( in moral neautral areas, for example the Father wants a blue cow but the Son wants a red cow LOL)

LOL. Yeah I guess so but you know they'll all agree in the end!

CeT-To wrote:If they have the same will which im presuming is the same as desires, even on moral neautral areas, then i think this means all 3 persons had the same 1 thought for eternity till the Trinity chose to put everything into action. Like i said in my previous post, it could be the case that God's thought would constitute everything~literally everything, both in the future temporal time and in his timeless state causally prior his first creation or action. But the ideas in this thought would not be infinite since to my knowledge an absolute infinite has no beginning or end, rather it could just be an uncountable number of ideas ( to us its uncountable) this is not to say that it has an ending but that it is impossible to count to infinity. Although, I think if God thought successively one thought after another then he would enter a temporal state even though he had created nothing at all but in both these explanation he would have had 1 thought to start with for all eternity since the Triune God cannot be thoughtless.

I see the Will of God of as merely a means to an end. His desires being the fulfilment of that which he Wills and knows is to come. What desires could God have other than the fulfilment of His knowledge? And so the desires must be the same for the Three, and since the Three are really One then the desires are based on the exact same knowledge. Unless God chooses to suppress or suspend His knowledge, which I don't really believe.

I don’t see God as being constrained prior-creation by one single block-thought of Everything. Would that even be a constraint? If we say that God is timeless, omnipotent and His knowledge perfection then He is in total control of the whole affair and thus can’t be bound by His own knowledge. But since we both agree that the Triune God cannot be thoughtless then we surely embrace on this.

CeT-To wrote:I'm not sure if I'm correct but thats what i think atm, im no expert with the types of infinites, neither with philosophy of time. Even so, this is a hard idea to grasp that God could have 1 thought as long as God existed! Yet i think it can be explained in the fact that causation and effect can be simultaneous. For example i herd one ( which i think originates from Kant) that goes like this, imagine a heavy ball sitting on top of a pillow, the pillow has a depression on its surface because of the curvature of the heavy ball. Now the ball and the pillow could have existed from eternity past so that the ball was always on the pillow but nonetheless the depression of the pillow is caused by the heavy ball. So the heavy ball is the efficient cause of the depression upon the pillow, likewise God is the efficient cause for his own thought yet both have existed as long as eachother because God cannot be thoughtless.

That’s some deep thinking there, Bro. I’m not sure I’m determining what your meaning of one thought is here. Can you be more specific, and do you see it as a constraint on God. LOL - for give me if I’m being a dope but it’s been a long day.

blessings

DannyM wrote:Hello Bro
Now I'm terrible with my Bible and I'm gonna smack myself. Got an NIV Study Bible coming soon and it can't come quick enough; been ploughing through the King James and, while beautiful it does my head in. Jesus was 'lower' on earth for sure, having lowered Himself...LOL. Jesus is God and equal with the Father. The Father must by definition be the 'greater', but I don't see this as being logically incompatible with the Equality of the Trinity. Do you think that one of the Three could exercise a greater omnipotence over the other? Greater omniscience or greater Love? I see total and utter Unity and Oneness.

Ah so the Father is greater by definition? in what way? okay okay we both agree that all 3 persons are equal since they are 1 being and can excersise all the omni powers, i've always agreed with the equality in the Trinity lol.

DannyM wrote:LOL. Yeah I guess so but you know they'll all agree in the end!

Of course they will but i think the reason is because the Father has greater authority, i mean the way i think about it is that if one of the persons of the Trinity didn't have greater authority it would lead to contradictions within the will and desires in the Trinity relationship. But i only mean this in moral neautral areas since God wouldn't be any greater or lesser if choosing to create a different colored cow than any other. Since by definition God is all loving, all knowing etc etc they wouldn't have any other will or desires in moral situations but only 1 - the best way God can do something.

DannyM wrote:I see the Will of God of as merely a means to an end. His desires being the fulfilment of that which he Wills and knows is to come. What desires could God have other than the fulfilment of His knowledge? And so the desires must be the same for the Three, and since the Three are really One then the desires are based on the exact same knowledge. Unless God chooses to suppress or suspend His knowledge, which I don't really believe.

I don’t see God as being constrained prior-creation by one single block-thought of Everything. Would that even be a constraint? If we say that God is timeless, omnipotent and His knowledge perfection then He is in total control of the whole affair and thus can’t be bound by His own knowledge. But since we both agree that the Triune God cannot be thoughtless then we surely embrace on this.

Mmm i agree with you on the will and desires of God. Speaking of God suppressing knowledge, that is what the Son is doing right now. Matthew 24:36 , Acts 1:7 ~ now one wonders why the Son is suppressing his knowledge, i think its safe to say that because he is also human, but nevertheless there has to be a reason since Jesus could forknow the future even in his Earthly ministry, yet was it by him retrieving knowledge from his omniscient ability of his God nature? since he never prayed to the Father when he would do a miracle - John 11:41-43. Or was it by the Father's will and authority that Jesus was allowed to excersise such abilities from His God nature? John 5:20. I think its both to be honest in his Earthly stay. But likewise i think it is the Father's will that the Son not know and nor retrieve the knowledge of the event in the end of times even now in His glorified state. Why? Not completely sure - but i think its to show that the Father has ultimate authority, thats my hunch.

I don't think its actually a constraint! Rather i think its the opposite IMO, i mean when we have a thought its composed of 1 idea maybe 2 LOL. Why should we impose that on God? Why cant God have multiple ideas for example multiple pictures in his mind at once, in 1 thought? See i dont think it's a restraint but a show of how greater he is than any of creation. So like i said in my previous post would couldn't God's omniscience be expressed in 1 thought?

DannyM wrote:That’s some deep thinking there, Bro. I’m not sure I’m determining what your meaning of one thought is here. Can you be more specific, and do you see it as a constraint on God. LOL - for give me if I’m being a dope but it’s been a long day.

Well 1 thought for us is to think about something or to think of an idea or a concept, at least thats what i think .

I don't think its actually a constraint! Rather i think its the opposite IMO, i mean when we have a thought its composed of 1 idea LOL. Why should we impose that on God? Why cant God have multiple ideas, for example multiple pictures in his mind at once, in 1 thought? See i dont think it's a restraint but a show of how greater he is than any of his creation, no rival. So like i said in my previous post, couldn't God's omniscience be expressed in 1 thought in his timeless state since he cannot be thoughtless?

Hahaha yeah it is pretty deep i love having crazy discussions like this or even thinking about them!

God bless!

Well, God is thinking and doing everything throughout all of history right now . Try 'n' wrap your head around that! .

SnowDrops wrote:Well, God is thinking and doing everything throughout all of history right now . Try 'n' wrap your head around that! .

Hahah the Almighty is oh so sovereign!

Something came to mind before, that God didn't have to think about everything in His 1 thought in His timeless state, that by no means diminishes his omniscience. God's 1 thought could have been anything, one idea or even immensely more! Either way God still knows regardless if He is thinking it or not but i think when i say this it limits him to human terms. I mean even now he is upholding, preserving creation for if He didn't everything besides himself would pop out of existance. Thus He is continuasly thinking about every small atom in the universe, literally everything, even Angels and Demons & Heaven and Hell ~ depends on God thinking about them non stop, upholding them in existence.

It makes me shiver to think about this though, if God is omniscient knowing all truth in all tenses even in His timeless state... that means we've been part of His plan as long as God as been around - eternity. That means we - our individual unique personalities which makes me ME and you YOU - have been ideas which has been in His mind for an eternity. Something i just cannot comprehend. ~ Romans 11:34 ~

First off, reducing God to something we can understand is all fine and dandy but we always have to have in mind the notion that this is what we are doing.
God is far and above anything we can completely understand, that God has chosen to reveal himself in his Son, Christ, shows that we NEED to understand Christ as he WAS and IS to US, before we can truly grasp ALL the God is.
The Trinity was an attempt to do jsut that, something that was done to answer the herseys' of the likes of Arian.
If those things hadn't of come up, there would have been no "trinity doctrine".
The mind-body-spirit analogy is a good one to start with, in trying to grasp the Trinity.
We are made on God's image so the "trinity of US" has even more signifcance.
God The Father is supreme and the HS and Christ subject themselves volunterily to The Father because of their perfect Union, just as, IDEALLY, Our mind and body subject themselves to Our Spirit.
The equality is still there, What God begets is God, hence Christ is God and the HS, the is both Christ and God the Father and that which united them, is THEM, hence God.
Yet, they are distinct ( volunterily) and separate, just like our body, mind and spirit ( which together make us a Living Soul).

PaulSacramento wrote:First off, reducing God to something we can understand is all fine and dandy but we always have to have in mind the notion that this is what we are doing.
God is far and above anything we can completely understand, that God has chosen to reveal himself in his Son, Christ, shows that we NEED to understand Christ as he WAS and IS to US, before we can truly grasp ALL the God is.
The Trinity was an attempt to do jsut that, something that was done to answer the herseys' of the likes of Arian.
If those things hadn't of come up, there would have been no "trinity doctrine".
The mind-body-spirit analogy is a good one to start with, in trying to grasp the Trinity.
We are made on God's image so the "trinity of US" has even more signifcance.
God The Father is supreme and the HS and Christ subject themselves volunterily to The Father because of their perfect Union, just as, IDEALLY, Our mind and body subject themselves to Our Spirit.
The equality is still there, What God begets is God, hence Christ is God and the HS, the is both Christ and God the Father and that which united them, is THEM, hence God.
Yet, they are distinct ( volunterily) and separate, just like our body, mind and spirit ( which together make us a Living Soul).

I agree with you on the perfect union! But for some reason i think the analogy, you could say, of 3 minds and 1 spirit is better than the analogy of the body, mind and spirit. Nonetheless if it gets the message out, the truth, then it doesn't matter. I'm trying to understand God but i know i can't comprehend Him but this doesn't mean we can't dwell on the subject. I mean better think about God and try to understand Him than watching tv or most of the stuff one can do. God isn't some sort of contradiction that we can't understand but this is not to say that we can comprehend Him either! I agree that we should be on alert not to bring God down when we try to understand Him but thats not always the case when people try to. For example, knowing that God is the unmoved mover. I understand that but I cannot truly comprehend it, it just leaves me in awe at the majesty of God.

God bless!