Evidence for God from Science

Hey everyone, I was wanting to discuss about what Christians have to look forward to specifically as far as not only after their deaths but during and after all the end time events go on. From what I've seen there is a ton of confusion as far as what is going to happen in what order. I'm going to give you all a few lists, some coming from what I've learned in church before my "apologetics days" and lists that I've heard and taken into account during these last few years of studying apologetics and theology.

Ok now then, when I was much smaller while listening in church the pastor appeared to give this kind of run down for the Christian's future...

1. Current age (people are being born and dying, living out their lives and either accepting or rejecting the gospel as well as hearing or not hearing the gospel)

2. The "rapture" of the church/ all dead believers are either made alive again and awaken from the sleep of death or just their bodies/or remains rise upward to be "connected" again with their souls which are in heaven/temporal heaven/Abraham's bosom as well as the Christians who are alive at this time will rise upward or will just disappear and have their physical bodies changed and meet up with the previously dead believers or the bodies of the dead believers.

3. The antichrist comes to power to govern the people remaining on the earth, claims to be God and sits up a one world government and religion.

4. Some countries, and groups of people (along with Israel) rebels and go against the Antichrist and Armageddon breaks out

5. God along with all of the believers and angels accompanying Him show up in the sky and defeat the antichrist and his followers and God locks Satan up in a supernatural hellish dungeon for the millennial reign.

6. The millennial reign of Christ begins where God rules on the earth in Jerusalem with his followers for a thousand years (during this time new people are born and some even die but not near as much as previous, also people are still given the choice to either accept or reject Christ).

7. After the thousand years Satan comes back trying one last time to mess up God's plans and take some more people away from God's fold and then God takes Satan and throws him into the pits of hell along with all of the lost people where they stay there for eternity.

8. Finally the new heavens and new earth are fully finished and God and all of his followers embark on enjoying eternity, each other, and doing wonderful "fun projects" or who knows what for all eternity and we all either live in heaven only, the new earth only or we can pick and choose or go back and forth?????

*somewhere between numbers 2 and 8 believers are given the rewards for faithful service, persecution,living a virtuous life and so on) and I guess around numbers 7 and 8 the lost are given what amount of eternal punishment they will endure before living it out in hell*


Now this is what I took to be the most true and biblical model before I dove deeper into apologetics and more specifically theology.

Since then, from becoming aware of views like amillennial, premillennial, as well as the lack of data supporting the idea of the rapture along with the more deeper thing I'm currently struggling with (that being deciding between the views of substance dualism and non reductive physicalism regarding the human soul) because if non reductive physicalism holds to be true which I've recently seen some rather compelling material from a biblical standpoint in which if the ancient Hebrew works out just right, the ancient word for soul just simply meant human or person (which means we do not have souls but are a soul).

Thus if this view is right then that could shake of the whole list but thankfully salvages our hopes for an afterlife.

As far as I can tell from that view if combined with preterism or partial preterism the list would look something like this

1. World events go on as normal

2. Something causes all humanity to go extinct

3. God then resurrects all of the living

4. God then judges the wicked sends them to hell

5. God rewards the believers and they either dwell with God in heaven or God re-crates the earth and they along with God dwell on the earth for eternity.

Out of these lists which one appears to have the most biblical evidence for?

Any help I can get on sorting out this confusion will be greatly appreciated.

Hi DRDS

Since no one has answered this question yet, I will give you my understanding of it. Views on eschatology are generally varied in scope and depth because it is speaking about the future and since we have no way of going into the future and coming back, then we can only go on what's written. But it seems that from many views on eschatology, only select verses are used to back up a particular worldview(s) and not all verses which leads to confusion when God claims He is not the author of confusion. If all verses relating to the end times are included and human tradition removed completely from the view, a clearer picture should emerge.

World events are going on as normal and in the current age (people are being born and dying, living out their lives and either accepting or rejecting the gospel as well as hearing or not hearing the gospel). I agree with this.

I don't believe in a rapture. Ezekiel ch 13 slams the door shut on those who would believe in the rapture in my opinion, because it claims there that God is against those that teach his children to fly to save their souls. This in a nutshell is what the rapture theory teaches; that God is going to fly the believers out of here so that those who remain have to go through the tribulation of the antichrist. It claims in the New Testament though, that all Christians who live Godly in Christ Jesus will go through persecution (tribulation). According to Christian history, it would appear that Christians will go through persecution and not be given a get-out-of-jail-free card. I happen to believe that the first one taken in Matt 24 are those who are deceived (taken or stolen) by Satan in his role as antichrist and the ones that are left, that is, those who weren't deceived are those who understand that antichrist has to return to earth before Christ gets here. In Psalm 110, Christ sits at the right hand of God until all his enemies are made his footstool. Since Satan is God's enemy, there is no way Christ can return here until Satan is here first.

The world economic, educational, political, religious system which I believe is the first beast of revelation, Rev 13, (the seven headed, ten horned system) fails. It receives a deadly wound, Rev 13. Since I'm an OEC gap creationist, it is a mirror of the same system that Satan had in the first age, described in Rev 12, the seven headed, ten horn system, where heads are symbolic of governments and horns are powers. Satan returns and heals the system and the whole world wonders after him.

The antichrist (Satan) comes to power to govern the people remaining on the earth, claims to be God and sets up a one world government and religion. Agreed. He heals the deadly wound to the world system and then sets up a mirror image of that world system (first beast), with him as its leader (second beast). He enters the picture peacefully and prosperously. He looked like the lamb (Jesus Christ) but spoke like the dragon (Satan). Why? Because the dragon is Satan disguised as Jesus Christ and according to 2Thess 2, he will claim to be the god of all religions (all that is worshipped.) Only those who worship him as God can be part of the system, that is, they take the mark of the beast. According to Luke, Jerusalem will be surrounded by armies at this time. These armies, from my understanding, are all those people who believe that antichrist is God and they are so convinced that he is God, they will be the equivalent of his soldiers, hence an army.

The two witnesses (Rev 11) appear on the scene and prophecy against the antichrist. This drives Satan into such a furor that after they are done speaking the truth about him, he kills them on the spot. The deceived world despises the accusations that the two witnesses make so much, that they refuse them a burial. However, due to their testimony, it awakens those who were spiritually blinded. That is, from the two witnesses testimony, the veil is taken away from many peoples eyes and they realize that the entity claiming to be God is not who he claims to be.

Some countries, and groups of people rebel and go against the Antichrist. Agreed. The king of the north and king of the south from the book of Daniel. I don't believe Israel does because the Jews will be convinced through the lies of antichrist, that he is their long awaited messiah.

Satan gathers up from around the world, all those who don't believe he is God. Once they are all together they prophecy against him, not out of thier own minds, but speak the cloven tongue of the Holy Spirit (Luke ch 12). What they say there at that time in front of the antichrist, will be so convincing, even the naysayers will believe them, because it will be God speaking through them and not they themselves. Their testimony, awakens the 144 000. Satan will attempt to sway those whom he has gathered to his side, (Rev 2) and will persecute them.

It is at this time that Christ returns to Jerusalem with all those who have died in the past, good and bad and the battle of Armageddon begins. The two witnesses that Satan killed are resurrected in sight of the whole world. No one goes to meet Christ in the air for Christ is returning here. All those who worshipped antichrist as God, will see the Sign of the Son of Man in the sky and will mourn and try and hide themselves from the wrath of the lamb (Matt 24) because they will realize that they have been had. Instead all flesh bodies die at this time (Zech 14), for flesh and blood cannot stand before a Holy God, and those who believed meet Christ in their spiritual (air) bodies. Christ rains down hailstones weighing as much as a talent (Rev 16:21) on Jerusalem leveling the city. That's why Jesus sats in Matt 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21, that there will not be one stone standing atop another when He returns. Satans role as antichrist ends at this time.

Jesus, through one of his angels locks up Satan in the bottomless pit and the Day of the Lord begins. The Day of the Lord lasts a thousand human years long and it is a time of teaching. Those who believe have already been resurrected (first resurrection) and have an immortal soul. A number of these will reign as priests and kings with Jesus during the Lord's day and they will teach all those who either denied Christ, didn't know Christ or were deceived by antichrist. Those who didn't believe, or who were never taught still have a spiritual body, but have a "mortal" soul meaning it's still liable to die. According to Eze 45, they will be taught the difference between the holy and the profane during the Lord's day.

At the end of the Lord's day, Satan will be released from the bottomless pit and will go out of his way to decieve all those who were taught during the Lord's day. The battle of Hamon Gog, Eze 38, begins at this time. Satan is overcome and is cast into the lake of fire and is turned to ashes from within, Eze 28.

The great white throne judgment begins. Those who were believers and who already attained the first resurrection will be rewarded. Those who overcame Satan at the battle of Hamon Gog, will be judged according to their works and will be resurrected and given an immortal soul (second resurrection). Those who didn't will be cast into the lake of fire and consumed, suffering the second death. This is the sheep and goats judgment (Matt 25).

God the Father returns to the earth to meet Christ the Son, and the whole Trinity (Godhead) is present as the second age ends, a new heaven and earth are made anew and the third age, the Eternity begins.

Hope that helps clarify for you the eternal time schedule.

Katabole wrote:Hi DRDS

Since no one has answered this question yet, I will give you my understanding of it. Views on eschatology are generally varied in scope and depth because it is speaking about the future and since we have no way of going into the future and coming back, then we can only go on what's written. But it seems that from many views on eschatology, only select verses are used to back up a particular worldview(s) and not all verses which leads to confusion when God claims He is not the author of confusion. If all verses relating to the end times are included and human tradition removed completely from the view, a clearer picture should emerge.

World events are going on as normal and in the current age (people are being born and dying, living out their lives and either accepting or rejecting the gospel as well as hearing or not hearing the gospel). I agree with this.

I don't believe in a rapture. Ezekiel ch 13 slams the door shut on those who would believe in the rapture in my opinion, because it claims there that God is against those that teach his children to fly to save their souls. This in a nutshell is what the rapture theory teaches; that God is going to fly the believers out of here so that those who remain have to go through the tribulation of the antichrist. It claims in the New Testament though, that all Christians who live Godly in Christ Jesus will go through persecution (tribulation). According to Christian history, it would appear that Christians will go through persecution and not be given a get-out-of-jail-free card. I happen to believe that the first one taken in Matt 24 are those who are deceived (taken or stolen) by Satan in his role as antichrist and the ones that are left, that is, those who weren't deceived are those who understand that antichrist has to return to earth before Christ gets here. In Psalm 110, Christ sits at the right hand of God until all his enemies are made his footstool. Since Satan is God's enemy, there is no way Christ can return here until Satan is here first.

The world economic, educational, political, religious system which I believe is the first beast of revelation, Rev 13, (the seven headed, ten horned system) fails. It receives a deadly wound, Rev 13. Since I'm an OEC gap creationist, it is a mirror of the same system that Satan had in the first age, described in Rev 12, the seven headed, ten horn system, where heads are symbolic of governments and horns are powers. Satan returns and heals the system and the whole world wonders after him.

The antichrist (Satan) comes to power to govern the people remaining on the earth, claims to be God and sets up a one world government and religion. Agreed. He heals the deadly wound to the world system and then sets up a mirror image of that world system (first beast), with him as its leader (second beast). He enters the picture peacefully and prosperously. He looked like the lamb (Jesus Christ) but spoke like the dragon (Satan). Why? Because the dragon is Satan disguised as Jesus Christ and according to 2Thess 2, he will claim to be the god of all religions (all that is worshipped.) Only those who worship him as God can be part of the system, that is, they take the mark of the beast. According to Luke, Jerusalem will be surrounded by armies at this time. These armies, from my understanding, are all those people who believe that antichrist is God and they are so convinced that he is God, they will be the equivalent of his soldiers, hence an army.

The two witnesses (Rev 11) appear on the scene and prophecy against the antichrist. This drives Satan into such a furor that after they are done speaking the truth about him, he kills them on the spot. The deceived world despises the accusations that the two witnesses make so much, that they refuse them a burial. However, due to their testimony, it awakens those who were spiritually blinded. That is, from the two witnesses testimony, the veil is taken away from many peoples eyes and they realize that the entity claiming to be God is not who he claims to be.

Some countries, and groups of people rebel and go against the Antichrist. Agreed. The king of the north and king of the south from the book of Daniel. I don't believe Israel does because the Jews will be convinced through the lies of antichrist, that he is their long awaited messiah.

Satan gathers up from around the world, all those who don't believe he is God. Once they are all together they prophecy against him, not out of thier own minds, but speak the cloven tongue of the Holy Spirit (Luke ch 12). What they say there at that time in front of the antichrist, will be so convincing, even the naysayers will believe them, because it will be God speaking through them and not they themselves. Their testimony, awakens the 144 000. Satan will attempt to sway those whom he has gathered to his side, (Rev 2) and will persecute them.

It is at this time that Christ returns to Jerusalem with all those who have died in the past, good and bad and the battle of Armageddon begins. The two witnesses that Satan killed are resurrected in sight of the whole world. No one goes to meet Christ in the air for Christ is returning here. All those who worshipped antichrist as God, will see the Sign of the Son of Man in the sky and will mourn and try and hide themselves from the wrath of the lamb (Matt 24) because they will realize that they have been had. Instead all flesh bodies die at this time (Zech 14), for flesh and blood cannot stand before a Holy God, and those who believed meet Christ in their spiritual (air) bodies. Christ rains down hailstones weighing as much as a talent (Rev 16:21) on Jerusalem leveling the city. That's why Jesus sats in Matt 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21, that there will not be one stone standing atop another when He returns. Satans role as antichrist ends at this time.

Jesus, through one of his angels locks up Satan in the bottomless pit and the Day of the Lord begins. The Day of the Lord lasts a thousand human years long and it is a time of teaching. Those who believe have already been resurrected (first resurrection) and have an immortal soul. A number of these will reign as priests and kings with Jesus during the Lord's day and they will teach all those who either denied Christ, didn't know Christ or were deceived by antichrist. Those who didn't believe, or who were never taught still have a spiritual body, but have a "mortal" soul meaning it's still liable to die. According to Eze 45, they will be taught the difference between the holy and the profane during the Lord's day.

At the end of the Lord's day, Satan will be released from the bottomless pit and will go out of his way to decieve all those who were taught during the Lord's day. The battle of Hamon Gog, Eze 38, begins at this time. Satan is overcome and is cast into the lake of fire and is turned to ashes from within, Eze 28.

The great white throne judgment begins. Those who were believers and who already attained the first resurrection will be rewarded. Those who overcame Satan at the battle of Hamon Gog, will be judged according to their works and will be resurrected and given an immortal soul (second resurrection). Those who didn't will be cast into the lake of fire and consumed, suffering the second death. This is the sheep and goats judgment (Matt 25).

God the Father returns to the earth to meet Christ the Son, and the whole Trinity (Godhead) is present as the second age ends, a new heaven and earth are made anew and the third age, the Eternity begins.

Hope that helps clarify for you the eternal time schedule.

Thank you, that was very helpful. But I was also curious as to what this schedule would look like if for instance, preterism (full or partial) were true?
Plus, at the very end of your list when the new heavens and earth are made and we enter the third age or Eternity, what do we all do then? From what you can tell does the Bible give any hints as to what we will be doing then? Thanks again for your time.

Hi DRDS

DRDS wrote:But I was also curious as to what this schedule would look like if for instance, preterism (full or partial) were true?

I have attempted in the past to apply the full and partial preterist views to eschatology in view of their hermeneutics because it wouldn't have been fair to simply accept the futurist view without comparing it to the other views but I found it just left me in confusion. I found after much deliberation, by asking many questions to those who held those views and by discussing it with people in my own church, that the partial/full preterist view is seriously lacking in its theological scope and intellectual rigour by either explaining particular passages as symbolic rather than literal or literal rather than symbolic. And even their symbolic views were not in accordance because it seemed they simply believed partial/full preterism was correct in the first place without comparison to context and applied passages of scripture and select views of history to their worldview, instead of simply interpreting what God has already interpreted for us.

As for the destruction of Jerusalem, at the beginning of the three versions of the 'Olivet' prophecy in Matt 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 Jesus claims in Matt 24:2, Mark 13:2 and Luke 21:6 that there would come a time when there would not be left standing one stone atop another in that place. We know from history, that the Roman general Titus sacked the city tearing its building to the ground. What is missed however, is trivial, yet vitally important to the scope of Jesus' prophecy and that is, that the Western Wall of Herod's Temple was not torn down. It still stands today. If preterism was correct, the Western Wall, which is made from stones should have been torn down by Titus. It wasn't. The Bible claims that Jerusalem in God's words is, "My holy hill". Jesus at the beginning of the Olivet prophecies is speaking of a catacalysmic event, yet future.

As for the antichrist, from what I understand of the partial/full preterist view is that it is not literally Satan in a role as the antichrist but it was a historical Jewish figure, Bar-Cochebas in 135 AD, when the Romans again sacked the city because Bar-Cochebas had aquired the ruins of the city and supposedly set up the abomination of desolation, renamed it Aelia Capitolina, and a temple was erected to Jupiter.

The partial/full preterist view would again say that the resurrection of the dead happened twice. Matthew makes two statements in Matt 27:52,53 which appear that the dead came out of their graves after Jesus died on the cross. I believe that this was an event specifically for that time, to show the people in the city that Jesus was indeed the Messiah and that he had defeated death. For it claims in those verses that many, not all came out of the graves. Though I believe when a person dies, their spirit returns to God who gave it, this particular event was done so that a physical manifestation explained a spiritual condition to the people of that time, again, one of the reasons why Christianity exploded out of Judaism in the first century.They also say that although the "resurrection" happened in 70 AD, the bodies of Christians were left in the grave. This runs in contradiction to 1Cor 15:51-53, when at the last trumpet (the seventh trumpet of Revelation), then the (spiritually) dead are raised and not before. Again a future event.

Preterists both partial and full also hold to the rapture (some pre and some post millenial) and they exclusively and almost always quote 1Thess 4:15-17. The problem with that interpretation is that they are excluding verse 13, probably the most important verse in the chapter, because it is the verse which categorizes the subject and the subject is, where are the dead? So in verse 14, which they also exclude, Paul claims that if you believe that Christ rose from the dead, you better believe that those who have died are with Christ. They are not lying in graveyards awaiting a physical resurrection. They also claim the use of the word 'air' is literal in verse 17, or means a spiritual dimension when it it signifies a "breath of life" body, hence the spiritual body. Paul claims in 1Cor 15 that humans have two bodies, the natural (flesh) and the spiritual. Even in the time of Paul, this confused the Thessalonians so much, that Paul wrote them a second letter and in chapter two, he exemplifies what he already had told the Thessalonians: Christ cannot return to Earth until Satan (Paul calls him the son of perdition in ch2) is here first. Satan returns at the sixth trumpet of Revelation. Christ returns at the seventh trumpet. And that event is still future.

Partial and full preterists hold to the fact that the "generation" mentioned in Matt 24;34 is speaking about the generation of the first century who would witness the destruction of Jerusalem. Again, what they exclude is verse 32 of that chapter, where Jesus says to learn the parable of the fig tree. Since it is the only parable in the Bible that Jesus tells the reader to learn, many of the preterist school have not learned it because they do not understand what it means. Without going into a long explanation about the parable, it simply says that when Israel becomes a country again, the generation that follows that event is the generation Jesus is speaking about. That didn't happen in the first century, but happened in the 20th century. Some preterists take the dangerous step of spiritualizing all passages of Scripture that relate to the nation of Israel, and claim that these refer to the church, the "New Israel." They teach that the "old earth," which Scripture says will pass away, is the Old Covenant but upon reading 2Pet 3, Peter is speaking about the three heaven and earth ages of time and not an old covenant. The new heaven and new earth, they say, is the New Covenant, not the future eon of time and the "elements," which Scripture says will burn with fervent heat when this happens, are the "elements of the law." The word element in Greek is word 4747 from Strong's Concordance, pronounced "stoicheion", the evil rudiments, and it is speaking of those who God will consume in the lake of fire at the end of the age and certainly not 'elements of the law'.
That generation we are presently living in and the events described in Matt 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21, should follow that logical progression, where most of the events Jesus describes in those chapters are still future.

DRDS wrote:Plus, at the very end of your list when the new heavens and earth are made and we enter the third age or Eternity, what do we all do then? From what you can tell does the Bible give any hints as to what we will be doing then?

Well, God did create the rest of the universe and Jesus does make one statement which I believe can be applied to the future context even though he was explaining to them why lack of faith doesn't work. It's the closing statement in the verse.

Matt 17:20 (KJV) And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

If you couple that with David's great hope that he desired after death:

Psalm 27:4 (KJV) One thing have I desired of the LORD, that will I seek after; that I may dwell in the house of the LORD all the days of my life, to behold the beauty of the LORD, and to enquire in his temple.

It seems to tell me that the future will be so amazing, the magnificence of it so overwhelming, that that existence simply cannot be comprehended while we exist in the flesh.

Hope that helps.

Yes that does help quite a lot, thank you. I do however want to point out that it is good that we have a backup plan set up to give a answer to certain situations in which possible end time scenarios pop up that don't jive well with the prophecies in Revelation. Situations such as for instance, something happens to Israel or if the one world government never comes to be. Or if humanity gets wiped out due to climate issues, a asteroid, a big famine, nuclear war, or some other kind of cataclysmic event that doesn't mach what the book of Revelation says.

Many people think if end times events don't fall directly within the scope of what the book of Revelation (and more specifically what futurists say) that it could show that Christianity is false but I'm fairly certain if one were to adopt some sort of preterist or allegorical interpretation of end times events one can argue that no matter how humanity finally ends, it won't by any means disprove Christianity.

But don't get me wrong, I think there is still good evidence for futurism, I really love futurism, I grew up with it, it's what I'm mostly familiar with. But I want to have a good back up plan or a good back up answer to sketpics and atheists who tell me that if humanity ends in a certain way not mentioned in the Bible, that it proves Christianity false. So that's more of what I'm trying to get at.

No problem DRDS. Anything I've said is not written in stone and if things turn out different than the way I believe they are written, then I will admit I am wrong and stand to be corrected.

We do however know from prophecy, especially those prophecies which have been fulfilled, that they turn out exactly as they are written.

As Jlay said on the 'Bible not from God?' thread:

The scripture proves it is divine in origin. A study of Daniels weeks prophecy demonstrates the divine inspiration of scripture.

I hear the response regularly when speaking to non-Christians and many Christians that the Bible contains the words of God but it is not the "Word of God". I find that to be an impossible, illogical statement. Not that I believe the Bible is the actual 'logos' of God. Only Christ fits that criteria but for example, I say to you, "I'm buying my sister a birthday present. Please don't tell her I did because I want to make sure it's a suprise." You say to me, "You have my word". I'll accept that statement as being I have absolute confidence that you will keep your promise and not tell my sister.

When God gives us His Word, I look at it in the same way, that God will keep his promises and we can have absolute confidence that everything He said will happen the way He said it.

I have questioned whether or not humanity will end the way it is described in Revelation. If the pre-trib rapture is true, then that will be an easy one to understand because one day many people will simply disappear. As for Jerusalem, since so much prophecy is directed towards that place, I find it hard to imagine it would be destroyed by anything other than Christ Himself because scripture points out:

Zech 12:3 (KJV) And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

But that remains to be seen. The Bible is the most read book in the world and the least studied. It is an exciting time to live!

Hello fellows! Thanks for starting this thread. I'm looking forward to reading more about this subject. My wife and I have been talking about this in the last couple of weeks. Rapture, no Rapture. If so, when. The important thing whether there is a rapture or not is to be saved and ready for whatever happens in that hour. Come what may. I think we can all agree on that.