Evidence for God from Science

I am reading it... and I see what I consider to be my greatest evil- Perfectionism. Why is being perfect so darn important in the bible? Why can't God be an imperfect being who makes mistakes? Why can't Jesus? What is so wrong about being imperfect?

Being "perfect" or rather considered perfect isn't everything... or rather.... I consider it to be nothing.

EDIT: So, believing in perfection is a Christian fundamental belief?
Wouldn't attaining perfection be sinful because if you did you would be God-ly? (in theory)
If you don't attain perfection then you have displeased God?

Jonouchi Katsuya wrote:I am reading it... and I see what I consider to be my greatest evil- Perfectionism. Why is being perfect so darn important in the bible? Why can't God be an imperfect being who makes mistakes? Why can't Jesus? What is so wrong about being imperfect?

Being "perfect" or rather considered perfect isn't everything... or rather.... I consider it to be nothing.

If God was imperfect it would mean he would contradict himself.
By the way, what kind of mistakes you have on your mind that God could make?

"What is so wrong with being imperfect?"

At the risk of sounding like a jerk, everything that separates imperfection from perfection is the 'wrong'.

However, if you noticed perfection in the Bible, you should have noticed that most of the time, it is imperfection that is talked about. Human beings are not perfect naturally. It is in our weakness that God is most capable of shining. If God were imperfect, so too would His love, justice, mercy, forgiveness, wrath, and wisdom be imperfect. I don't think it requires too long a theological treatise to suggest that God, with infinite power, knowledge, and presence, would have to be perfect to be good at all. But our definition of perfect is usually never lined up with God's, because God often causes us to scratch our heads before we are capable of understanding Him better.

Jonouchi Katsuya wrote:I am reading it... and I see what I consider to be my greatest evil- Perfectionism. Why is being perfect so darn important in the bible? Why can't God be an imperfect being who makes mistakes? Why can't Jesus? What is so wrong about being imperfect?

Being "perfect" or rather considered perfect isn't everything... or rather.... I consider it to be nothing.

Humans are imperfect, and they can pretty much never reach ultimate perfection like God. Think about it this way. For example, let's look at humans as children and parents as God. And instead of perfection, let's use something like responsibility.

Kids are not responsible. I'm talking about the 5 year old kids who would blame their older brother on doing something they did just to get out of trouble for their bad deed. This is us, whether we'd like to admit it or not. No matter how Christian we claim to be, we are selfish human beings. A majority of Christians believe in God simply so they can feel better about themselves, or not have to worry about death. Myself included. So back to the metaphor, we are like irresponsible kids.

Parents then, HAVE to be responsible in order for the kid to follow their example. They have to at least act like they are. :p If they are as responsible as the child, then everything will turn out to be a mess. Dishes won't be cleaned, the house will be dirty as heck, bills won't get paid, etc. Same thing with God. God and Jesus have to be perfect, in order to manage all of the things in the universe as well as to set an example. Having an imperfect being running the universe and all the different dimensions means He's gonna mess up at some point, and that mess up is going to largely affect the WHOLE UNIVERSE. You don't want someone who can totally mess up run the universe, do you?

Jesus was perfect to show us how to live our lives. No, He doesn't expect us to live as perfectly as He did, as the Bible stresses that humans will never on this earth reach that pinnacle of perfection. But we can at least try. We can look at what Jesus did and try our best to do it. We can know that it is possible to be a really good person.

I am reading it... and I see what I consider to be my greatest evil- Perfectionism. Why is being perfect so darn important in the bible? Why can't God be an imperfect being who makes mistakes? Why can't Jesus? What is so wrong about being imperfect?

Why can't a square be round?

If God made mistakes, what would that make you?
If Jesus made mistakes, then would the cross be a mistake?
To ascribe the wonders of creation to a goof up is really a stretch.

Perfection is important because it is the character and nature of the creator. It is the standard of his glory (Rom3:23). And not only does God desire it for us, but He provides it to us.

If God allowed imperfect beings into His Kingdom, what would happen? It would corrupt. If we are to have eternal peace with our creator, then He would have provided a way that created beings could be redeemed unto perfection, and thus made incorruptible. (1 Cor 15:52) Everything in creation is there to work towards the good of those who love Him. To offer man eternal life and peace with God.

You are right to say that it is your greatest evil. That is a very astute observation. I know life long church goers who have never had this epiphany. Your reaction is really normal. There are really only two ways to react to this knowledge. Try to bring God down to your level, which is condemnation. Or receive God's gift of perfection through faith is Jesus Christ and be lifted up. Romans 8:1

Great post Jlay!

So I guess in a way to reply to all of you...

Perfection is an opinion. While you may think that a God that can feel jealousy, wrath, anger, and many other negative "human" emotions... I think those emotions to be rather imperfect. Emotions in general are imperfect as well as feeling anything at all. (which is also kinda imperfect!) I guess to be perfect... he would only have one emotion- love. (but that would be rather imperfect to many of you now wouldn't it? That would mean that God wouldn't have even gotten mad at Lucifer and none of that would have happened!) So feeling only love would then make the spirit world vulnerable to a great deal many things. But I am sure if he were really perfect there would be a process of just cleaning everything that goes through that "door" so to speak.

And- All his creations would be just as perfect as he. So in a sense we would then be all perfect and I think we can all agree that his creation is not perfect and that there are still some bugs in his creation meaning that God is thus imperfect.

I think I hurt my head. But... you can see why I think God is imperfect right? And the mistake is creating creatures that could "anger" him in the first place.

If we were all perfect... it would be a rather boring world because we would just be one homogenous blob (something God doesn't want because he wants us to fight in wars or something because we are not all the same). And we would live in peace and harmony and we would all love each other and only feel love and we would have no need to eat or sleep or do anything... it would all just be so perfect we wouldn't need to do or feel anything but love...

Which... would be imperfect... to me... just as the world is now- but if I were to live in that world I wouldn't know it because I wouldn't feel that way now would I?

God is imperfect because his creation is imperfect. God is imperfect for feeling or lack of feeling. God is imperfect no matter what he does or what he is... imperfection is just what makes the world go round.

jlay wrote:

I am reading it... and I see what I consider to be my greatest evil- Perfectionism. Why is being perfect so darn important in the bible? Why can't God be an imperfect being who makes mistakes? Why can't Jesus? What is so wrong about being imperfect?

Why can't a square be round?

If God made mistakes, what would that make you?
If Jesus made mistakes, then would the cross be a mistake?
To ascribe the wonders of creation to a goof up is really a stretch.

Perfection is important because it is the character and nature of the creator. It is the standard of his glory (Rom3:23). And not only does God desire it for us, but He provides it to us.

If God allowed imperfect beings into His Kingdom, what would happen? It would corrupt. If we are to have eternal peace with our creator, then He would have provided a way that created beings could be redeemed unto perfection, and thus made incorruptible. (1 Cor 15:52) Everything in creation is there to work towards the good of those who love Him. To offer man eternal life and peace with God.

You are right to say that it is your greatest evil. That is a very astute observation. I know life long church goers who have never had this epiphany. Your reaction is really normal. There are really only two ways to react to this knowledge. Try to bring God down to your level, which is condemnation. Or receive God's gift of perfection through faith is Jesus Christ and be lifted up. Romans 8:1

But seeking perfection is wrong. If we ourselves became perfect- we would succeed God in your opinion correct? But if we don't become perfect, we are condemned anyway. So everyone goes to hell. Which would make sense with the we are all sinners stuff. But then Heaven in a sense would have no reason for existence all all.

And God would still be imperfect for creating anything imperfect... and needing anything at all. Especially worship.

Jonouchi Katsuya wrote: Perfection is an opinion. While you may think that a God that can feel jealousy, wrath, anger, and many other negative "human" emotions... I think those emotions to be rather imperfect

How does God experiencing these emotions make Him imperfect? How does it reduce God in any way?

DannyM wrote:

Jonouchi Katsuya wrote: Perfection is an opinion. While you may think that a God that can feel jealousy, wrath, anger, and many other negative "human" emotions... I think those emotions to be rather imperfect

How does God experiencing these emotions make Him imperfect? How does it reduce God in any way?

Jealousy would require him to not trust which would yes imply care but would also imply that he doesn't love us fully because love without trust isn't really love at all. And if he disapproves of any part of his creation then he is then acknowledging imperfection in his works. It also implies a sense of neediness that I find to be rather unattractive.

Wrath is the primary force of violence and aggression. All wrath can do is lash out.It is imperfect. In the rare case that wrath does contain love... is when a spouse is murdered by their partner. There were many times in which God's wrath killed entire towns.

I have noticed that... most of God's wrath comes from his vanity. And wrath spawned by jealousy or vanity are destructive forces. Most of the demands made by "God" or gods are for things that they themselves can not achieve or do not have for example it used to be believed that gods demanded blood because they do not bleed it would make sense to assume that they demand perfection because they are not perfect and worship because they are insecure themselves hence the vanity and wrath and jealousy.

Since when has a show of anger done anything good? Creating theatrics? It doesn't, it causes terror- which is exactly what God wants. He wants ants to be scared of him and worship him so nothing bad will happen to them... But this in no way is a perfect God... nothing can be.

But all of this is OK as long as the Christian God is to be regarded as imperfect.

But I think this might be more likely...

People wrote God's character wrong in the Bible. His message was not delivered in the same perfection that he is...it was tainted by the hands that wrote it... it was tainted by the imperfection of humans.

But then that would leave Christians in a bad spot as well... *sigh*

Jealousy would require him to not trust which would yes imply care but would also imply that he doesn't love us fully because love without trust isn't really love at all

Show me how God being jealous for his people causes Him not to trust his people. You have to show this apart from just saying it. You make an erroneous conclusion. God’s love is not in question at all here. You have to show me that God’s being jealous causes Him not to trust us which then causes Him not to love us fully. So show how you get from jealousy for His people to mistrust of His people.

And if he disapproves of any part of his creation then he is then acknowledging imperfection in his works. It also implies a sense of neediness that I find to be rather unattractive

An imperfect world does not entail an imperfect God. Your comment about neediness is just rhetoric and intended to offend.

Wrath is the primary force of violence and aggression. All wrath can do is lash out. It is imperfect. In the rare case that wrath does contain love... is when a spouse is murdered by their partner. There were many times in which God's wrath killed entire towns

Just empty rhetoric and assertion.

I have noticed that... most of God's wrath comes from his vanity. And wrath spawned by jealousy or vanity are destructive forces

Rhetorical only.

Most of the demands made by "God" or gods are for things that they themselves can not achieve or do not have for example it used to be believed that gods demanded blood because they do not bleed it would make sense to assume that they demand perfection because they are not perfect and worship because they are insecure themselves hence the vanity and wrath and jealousy

Irrelevant.

Since when has a show of anger done anything good? Creating theatrics?

If a father gets angry with his son for running out into the road, and with a passionate plea to never do that again, then clearly good can come out of this initial shock and anger. With God this is just multiplied since God’s anger is righteous and God is not angry for no reason.

It doesn't, it causes terror- which is exactly what God wants. He wants ants to be scared of him and worship him so nothing bad will happen to them... But this in no way is a perfect God... nothing can be

Rhetorical only.

But all of this is OK as long as the Christian God is to be regarded as imperfect

I’d think again.

Jonouchi Katsuya wrote:But I think this might be more likely...

People wrote God's character wrong in the Bible. His message was not delivered in the same perfection that he is...it was tainted by the hands that wrote it... it was tainted by the imperfection of humans.

But then that would leave Christians in a bad spot as well... *sigh*

So let me get this right. You are Buddhist and claim to be privy to the character of the Christian God?

Jonouchi Katsuya wrote:But I think this might be more likely...

People wrote God's character wrong in the Bible. His message was not delivered in the same perfection that he is...it was tainted by the hands that wrote it... it was tainted by the imperfection of humans.

But then that would leave Christians in a bad spot as well... *sigh*

I see no imperfection in the bible in referance to god. The only imperfection that is found in the bible is found in the humans of it. Jesus is perfect in every way, which makes all the parables perfect, If you could find an inperfection in a parable then jesus is imperfect, however, such a fault does not exist.

DannyM wrote:

Jealousy would require him to not trust which would yes imply care but would also imply that he doesn't love us fully because love without trust isn't really love at all

Show me how God being jealous for his people causes Him not to trust his people. You have to show this apart from just saying it. You make an erroneous conclusion. God’s love is not in question at all here. You have to show me that God’s being jealous causes Him not to trust us which then causes Him not to love us fully. So show how you get from jealousy for His people to mistrust of His people.

And if he disapproves of any part of his creation then he is then acknowledging imperfection in his works. It also implies a sense of neediness that I find to be rather unattractive

An imperfect world does not entail an imperfect God. Your comment about neediness is just rhetoric and intended to offend.

Wrath is the primary force of violence and aggression. All wrath can do is lash out. It is imperfect. In the rare case that wrath does contain love... is when a spouse is murdered by their partner. There were many times in which God's wrath killed entire towns

Just empty rhetoric and assertion.

I have noticed that... most of God's wrath comes from his vanity. And wrath spawned by jealousy or vanity are destructive forces

Rhetorical only.

Most of the demands made by "God" or gods are for things that they themselves can not achieve or do not have for example it used to be believed that gods demanded blood because they do not bleed it would make sense to assume that they demand perfection because they are not perfect and worship because they are insecure themselves hence the vanity and wrath and jealousy

Irrelevant.

Since when has a show of anger done anything good? Creating theatrics?

If a father gets angry with his son for running out into the road, and with a passionate plea to never do that again, then clearly good can come out of this initial shock and anger. With God this is just multiplied since God’s anger is righteous and God is not angry for no reason.

It doesn't, it causes terror- which is exactly what God wants. He wants ants to be scared of him and worship him so nothing bad will happen to them... But this in no way is a perfect God... nothing can be

Rhetorical only.

But all of this is OK as long as the Christian God is to be regarded as imperfect

I’d think again.

I didn't really intend... I apologize for needlessly expressing my opinion. I think I need to reign back a bit. Normally I would just keep this inside...

I think.. this opinion is the fundamental root as to why I am not Christian nor can I ever be. If... a Christian here can tell me it is A-OK for this belief in their society, then just maybe there is hope for me yet. I believe in God. I just don't believe him to be perfect or desirable to imitate. (I am not a particularly power hungry person like most people I know.)

But... God must love us just the way we are. And no need to change... He made us in his image... not our fault if he doesn't like what he sees. Because I completely agree that we reflect he who created us. A perfect image of likeness. Whether this is perfect is up to interpretation. There is a part of me.. that is willing to see the world as perfect the way it is. But there is always room for improvement with-in perfection says the artist.