Evidence for God from Science

Hey guys, I have a confession to make. It seems that the more i study the subject of salvation, the less I understand it.

My thoughts are, If Hell exists, there must be something one either does or does not do to get there.
That would mean then, if and since Heaven exists, there must be something someone does or does not do to get there as well.

I understand that it is not something earned, as we have all earned eternal judgement, but, we have to do something in order to accept salvation right?

As I see it in scripture, particularly in Romans 10:9, that if one believes in their heart that Jesus' death served as a sacrifice for all of mankind's sin, and if they acknowledge his authority as Lord or Master over their lives, then they will be saved. But does that not mean that salvation requires an obedience to Christ? And if salvation does require obedience, is that not a work that is required in order to be saved?

Or, is the obedience supposed to come as a reaction out of appreciation for the sacrifice Christ has made on our behalf?

The main premises I am trying to understand are

What part of salvation is supposed to lead to a change in ones behavior? Is it supposed to be a reaction based off of appreciation or is the change of behavior supposed to come out of obedience to our Lord? Is belief the only prerequisite of salvation or is it belief followed by a commanded obedience?

I could really use some guidance on this issue as it is stressing me out beyond belief. I almost feel as If I dont understand my faith anymore

A former friend of mine and I got into heated debates about this before. He went from calling himself "Christian" to "Eastern Orthodox Christian" to "Atheist" in a matter of ten months. His position in that middle phase was that salvation was a process that is never finished, you never know if you are actually saved, and it isn't the point.

Problem is, I couldn't get passed the part where it 'wasn't the point'. If I am not on good terms with God and if I have no idea my own eternal destiny, it to me is no different than atheism. From reading Scripture and especially trying to understand Christianity in its early years and from a Jewish perspective, I've come to see that Salvation is in fact a solid, concrete event, while Sanctification is a process that occurs over our lives. Neither is ours alone to perform, but we have to accept both out of free will. Faith and works most certainly do go together (a lot of people ignore John and only listen to Paul, who doesn't make as big a deal out of works). But what saves is faith. However, as John makes clear, faith is evidenced by works. It is the most natural consequence in the world. Works are done for appreciation and because they simply are the most obvious expression of the fact of Salvation. As we progress through life, God molds us into the people He wants us to be, and this process of molding is our Sanctification. Doing God's work is a big part of this; in fact, it encompasses all of it if you include fighting your own flesh as a 'work'.

Hope that offers some new insight, or at least another take on it.

so are works required? Is a change of behavior required after acceptance of salvation or is a person supposed to just want to accomplish good works once they realize that they have been saved?

Tevko wrote:so are works required? Is a change of behavior required after acceptance of salvation or is a person supposed to just want to accomplish good works once they realize that they have been saved?

Works not required - indeed works, of any kind, are practically frowned upon Romans 4:2

The process of sanctification includes being called to the Christian life

Lack of works do not negate the saved man's salvation

Works not required - indeed works, of any kind, are practically frowned upon Romans 4:2

So a person can receive salvation only by a historical belief in Christ while still living a sinful lifestyle?

Tevko wrote:

Works not required - indeed works, of any kind, are practically frowned upon Romans 4:2

So a person can receive salvation only by a historical belief in Christ while still living a sinful lifestyle?

yes

Then how do you justify luke 13:3 ?

Tevko wrote:Then how do you justify luke 13:3 ?

I'm confused. Why do you even think I need to justify Luke 13:3?

Do you think it is in conflict with Romans 4:2?

I do not understand How exactly I am saved by Christ and why repentance and turning from sin is necessary for salvation.

Aside from possible joy we might experience in following the will of God, why is it necessary to repent and turn from sin? Is our salvation contingent upon that?

Are we saved simply by a historical belief in Christ?

Can someone believe in Christ and have salvation without turning from a sinful lifestyle?

Is it only the belief that Christ is the sacrifice for our sins that saves a person, or must they then repent and follow christ in order to be saved?

Why is it necessary to turn from sin?

Tevko wrote:so are works required? Is a change of behavior required after acceptance of salvation or is a person supposed to just want to accomplish good works once they realize that they have been saved?

Tevko, I think you may be confusing salvation and sanctification. At the moment of salvation, the Holy Spirit indwells the believer. The process of Sanctification then begins in a believer, by the power of the Holy Spirit. A change of behavior isn't required. God works in us, causing a change in behavior, so to speak.

Tevko wrote:I do not understand How exactly I am saved by Christ and why repentance and turning from sin is necessary for salvation.

Aside from possible joy we might experience in following the will of God, why is it necessary to repent and turn from sin? Is our salvation contingent upon that?

Are we saved simply by a historical belief in Christ?

Can someone believe in Christ and have salvation without turning from a sinful lifestyle?

Is it only the belief that Christ is the sacrifice for our sins that saves a person, or must they then repent and follow christ in order to be saved?

Why is it necessary to turn from sin?

I wouldn't say repentance is necessarily necessary for salvation. Turning from sin comes by the power of the Holy Spirit, convicting us of sin.
I believe we are saved by God's grace when we believe on Christ, and His atoning sacrifice.
Following Christ, and becoming more like Him, is part of sanctification, not salvation.
While the Holy Spirit convicts of sin, we will never stop sinning in these mortal bodies.

Tevko wrote:I do not understand How exactly I am saved by Christ and why repentance and turning from sin is necessary for salvation

Repent means to recognise, to be remorseful for your sins

It’s a realisation of, coupled with a determination to turn from, sin

Please don't get tied up in your sin

Once you realise that it is by the grace of God that you are no longer doomed by your sin, then the shackles can begin to be loosened

It is freedom in Christ, SALVATION, which is the starting gun for dealing with sin

DannyM wrote:

Tevko wrote:so are works required? Is a change of behavior required after acceptance of salvation or is a person supposed to just want to accomplish good works once they realize that they have been saved?

Works not required - indeed works, of any kind, are practically frowned upon Romans 4:2

The process of sanctification includes being called to the Christian life

Lack of works do not negate the saved man's salvation

Works aren't frowned upon (James 2:14-26). Works don't save, but faith and works are so intimately tied that if you have faith, you will have works. It isn't that you -have- to do works to be saved, its that works are attached at the hip to faith. True repentance, true trusting in Christ, will lead to them as naturally as living without Christ will lead to sinfulness without remorse.

Tevko wrote:I do not understand How exactly I am saved by Christ and why repentance and turning from sin is necessary for salvation.

Aside from possible joy we might experience in following the will of God, why is it necessary to repent and turn from sin? Is our salvation contingent upon that?

Are we saved simply by a historical belief in Christ?

Can someone believe in Christ and have salvation without turning from a sinful lifestyle?

Is it only the belief that Christ is the sacrifice for our sins that saves a person, or must they then repent and follow christ in order to be saved?

Why is it necessary to turn from sin?

The term used for 'conversion' in Scripture presents the imagery of a road. In one direction is sin and in the other is Christ. You must look and pursue one or the other. When someone 'turns to Christ' (converts, repents), they have Salvation.

Belief alone is not enough. "Even the demons believe". Trust/Faith is required. This is why works -do- matter; in several places (I apologize for not citing them, I'm short on time but I can if you'd like later) in Scripture, works are the surest sign of faith. Signs only work when they work consistently. Works are consistently the outpouring of faith. That doesn't mean believers don't have God's help, but it does mean that just acknowledging God academically and trusting in Him for Salvation are two different things. And then, you have to remember that to trust for Salvation inherently requires a belief that you need Salvation in the first place.

MarcusOfLycia wrote:Works aren't frowned upon (James 2:14-26). Works don't save, but faith and works are so intimately tied that if you have faith, you will have works. It isn't that you -have- to do works to be saved, its that works are attached at the hip to faith. True repentance, true trusting in Christ, will lead to them as naturally as living without Christ will lead to sinfulness without remorse.

Works most certainly are frowned up when it comes to one's salvation. Paul positively scorns the idea.