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What's your top 3?
Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 8:01 am
by Lux Aeterna
I'm wondering, if you had to pick three top arguments for the existence of God, what would they be? I'm interested to see if there's any consensus as to what arguments are the strongest or most effective.
Re: What's your top 3?
Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 8:28 pm
by Danieltwotwenty
I would say morality would have to be one of those top 3.
Re: What's your top 3?
Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 8:56 pm
by D_Braceyourself
I like the syllogism "Everything that begins to exist has a cause, the universe began to exist, therefore the universe has a cause."
Re: What's your top 3?
Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 9:12 pm
by SonofAletheia
1) The Kalaam Cosmological Argument
2) The Teleological Argument
3) The Historical facts and evidence concerning the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ
I've never found the argument from morality that compelling. I find it hard to prove that there are objective morals. And the ontological argument is very weak in my humble opinion. The argument from consciousness would be my 4th pick.
-Justin
Re: What's your top 3?
Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 12:06 am
by CeT-To
1) Kalam Comsological argument
2) Fine-Tuning Argument
3)Historicity of Jesus' life, death and ressurrection
I like the ontological argument a lot but i don't think it convinces any atheist or agnostic - especially laymen.
God Bless!
Re: What's your top 3?
Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 1:11 am
by Silvertusk
For me the ultimate is simply why is there something rather than nothing. Then it would be the Cosmological arguement for fine tuning.
Re: What's your top 3?
Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 5:13 am
by Byblos
Silvertusk wrote:For me the ultimate is simply why is there something rather than nothing. Then it would be the Cosmological arguement for fine tuning.
Same here. 3rd would be the argument from objective morality.
Re: What's your top 3?
Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 9:33 am
by Katabole
I would go with the historical argument first. Then moral argument and finally cultural argument.
Historical Argument: Christianity exploded from Judaism in the first century AD under intense persecution. For Christianity to have succeeded at all it should have taught something other than a dead man coming back to life, so its meteoric rise is something of a miracle in itself. It was this same Jesus, the Christ who, among many other remarkable things, said and repeated something which, proceeding from any other being would have condemned him at once as either a bloated egotist or a dangerously unbalanced person...when He said He himself would rise again from the dead, the third day after He was crucified, He said something that only a fool would dare say, if he expected longer the devotion of any disciples—unless He was sure He was going to rise. No founder of any world religion known to men ever dared say a thing like that! Outside of the Bible, there are about 18 sources that mention Christians and Christianity from the first century. Jesus made certain claims. One of those claims that he was God, the Son of God. There is evidence that points to that claim being true because we have written documentation, something the writer Lee Strobel would call the five E's:
Execution of Jesus
Empty Tomb
Eyewitnesses
Early records
Emergence of the Church
Moral Argument: If it could ever be proven that there is no God, then I would side with Richard Dawkins. Dawkins has said it is next to impossible to support moral values except on religious grounds. He has said that at its bottom, the universe is exactly the type of universe to expect if there is no God. There is no good or evil, love or hate, right or wrong. And no justice. All there is, is just mindless, pitiless indifference. The philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche would claim that it is impossible to have moral values whatsoever, without implicitly evoking God. Morals do not exist in nature. Morals can only originate from a moral law giver.
Cultural Argument: The Canadian atheist writer and historian Pierre Berton in his 1965 book, 'The Comfortable Pew' made some comments about Christianity and its influence. He said, "It is my opinion that Christianity has shaped western society for the better and that without it we would be a poorer and less-inspired people. The western world differs from the eastern world in several ways, not the least of which are our Christian beliefs that all people are brothers and sisters, that love is the most powerful and noble of human emotions and that sacrifice is necessary for freedom. These beliefs form the basis of all western thought for which the very name is democracy." Berton goes on to say that organizations like the peace Corps or something like the Marshall Plan could never have been conceived except by nations based even subconsciously, by Christian principles.
Christianity is also the largest belief system in the world. It has influnced millions, produced amazing works of art and architecture and changed society culturally like no other belief system. I find it fascinating, that a country like Greece, that worshipped a pantheon of indigenous gods for over 2000 years, changed to a Christian nation, rejected their own polytheistic gods and adopted the belief of a God that was not native to their culture or country. Or for example, inside Mahatma Gandhi's house in India, which is presently a museum, there is a banner on which is inscibed a quote by the atheist philosopher Bertrand Russell. Russell says, "It is doubtful that Gandhi's effort would have succeeded except he was appealing to the conscience of a Christianized people." Isn't that fascinating? An atheist, commending the efforts of a pantheist, claiming he succeeded because the people he was appealing to were touched by the very person of Jesus Christ.
Because Christianity’s influence is so pervasive throughout much of the world, it is easy to forget how radical its beliefs once were. Jesus’ resurrection forever changed Christians’ view of death. Rodney Stark, sociologist at the University of Washington, points out that when a major plague hit the ancient Roman Empire, Christians had surprisingly high survival rates. Why? Most Roman citizens would banish any plague-stricken person from their household. But because Christians had no fear of death, they nursed their sick instead of throwing them out on the streets. Therefore, many Christians survived the plague. But the cultural argument is probably best said by the writer H G Wells:
I am an historian, I am not a believer, but I must confess as a historian that this penniless preacher from Nazareth is irrevocably the very center of history. Jesus Christ is easily the most dominant figure in all history.