Evidence for God from Science

I’ve heard that the kingdom of heaven is the here and now, that the Spirit of God now reigns in our hearts: we are experiencing the kingdom of heaven right now.

Others say it’s heaven itself.

But others say the kingdom of heaven is the literal reigning of God over the earth in fulfilment of the covenants God made with Israel.

I believe the third choice is the correct one. But I want to know others’ views on this. I'm anticipating the thread will expand onto other areas …

I think it refers to God's "nation" made up of Him, those who want a relationship with Him, and those who serve Him. In this way I think it includes both God's agenda and presence on Earth, as well as the future Heaven He has in store. I don't think it refers exclusively to Heaven, but I think Heaven is where the Kingdom will fully take over.

My humble 2 cents.

Seraph wrote:I think it refers to God's "nation" made up of Him, those who want a relationship with Him, and those who serve Him. In this way I think it includes both God's agenda and presence on Earth, as well as the future Heaven He has in store. I don't think it refers exclusively to Heaven, but I think Heaven is where the Kingdom will be fully take over.

My humble 2 cents.

Thanks, Seraph ... So you think the kingdom is a mixture of the here and now and heaven itself? Just trying to get a feel here ... and I want other perspectives ...

Danny

Rev 22:3
"No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him."

I think as long as this does not come to pass, the kingdom of heaven can't be established. No matter how anyone interpret the word "city" or "throne" or "servants", the curses would have to be abolished, finished and that is what I believe, will truly mark the start of it.

neo-x wrote:Danny

Rev 22:3
"No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him."

I think as long as this does not come to pass, the kingdom of heaven can't be established. No matter how anyone interpret the word "city" or "throne" or "servants", the curses would have to be abolished, finished and that is what I believe, will truly mark the start of it.

Thank you, Brother neo ...

Good to see you ...

We as Christians are meant to usher in the Kingdom of Heaven - so I think by our works the Kingdom of Heaven is slowly filtering in (so whether Jesus's light shines) - but like Neo said - until the second coming the Kingdom will not be here in its entirity.

The word "Kingdom" occurs over 300 times in the Bible.
I think there can be a broad use of the term and a narrow use. Obviously depending on context. I think there is good scripture to support that all believers are part of the Kingdom of God. Yet also specific usage that refers to plans regarding Israel. There is little question that OT writing views Israel as the Kingdom people. The disciples even after Jesus had opened the scriptures to them asked, "Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?" Acts 1:6 In this context there is a very specific application of the word. (Also Luke 19:11)

More general. (Rom. 14:17)

Thank you, Brother neo ...

Good to see you ...

same here Bro...

And my warm regards to you, silver and rick for being promoted. God bless you

neo-x wrote:

Thank you, Brother neo ...

Good to see you ...

same here Bro...

And my warm regards to you, silver and rick for being promoted. God bless you

Thank you, John

I'll respond to this soon

Hi Dan.

There are differences between the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God and Jesus with the New Testament writers speak of both. I always understood kingdom simply as the King (God) and his dominion. I'll just put them in point form for ease of those reading because many books have been written on this subject.

I. The Kingdom (or Sovereignty) of HEAVEN
1. Has Messiah for its King;
2. It is from heaven; and under the heavens upon the earth;
3. It is limited in its scope;
4. It is political in its sphere;
5. It is Israeli (Jewish) and exclusive in its character;
6. It is national in its aspect;
7. It is the special subject of Old Testament prophecy;
8. And it is dispensational in its duration.

II. The Kingdom (or Sovereignty) of GOD
1. Has God for its Ruler;
2. It is in heaven, over the earth;
3. It is unlimited in its scope;
4. It is moral and spiritual in its sphere;
5. It is inclusive in its character (embracing the natural and spiritual seeds of
Abraham, "the heavenly calling", and the "Church" of the Mystery). Hence,
6. It is universal in its aspect;
7. It is (in its wider aspect) the subject of New Testament revelation;
8. And will be eternal in its duration.

That's my understanding of the two.

Hi Katabole

Katabole wrote:
There are differences between the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God and Jesus with the New Testament writers speak of both. I always understood kingdom simply as the King (God) and his dominion. I'll just put them in point form for ease of those reading because many books have been written on this subject.

I. The Kingdom (or Sovereignty) of HEAVEN
1. Has Messiah for its King;
2. It is from heaven; and under the heavens upon the earth;
3. It is limited in its scope;
4. It is political in its sphere;
5. It is Israeli (Jewish) and exclusive in its character;
6. It is national in its aspect;
7. It is the special subject of Old Testament prophecy;
8. And it is dispensational in its duration.

II. The Kingdom (or Sovereignty) of GOD
1. Has God for its Ruler;
2. It is in heaven, over the earth;
3. It is unlimited in its scope;
4. It is moral and spiritual in its sphere;
5. It is inclusive in its character (embracing the natural and spiritual seeds of
Abraham, "the heavenly calling", and the "Church" of the Mystery). Hence,
6. It is universal in its aspect;
7. It is (in its wider aspect) the subject of New Testament revelation;
8. And will be eternal in its duration.

That's my understanding of the two.

Thank you, Bro. That has helped me A LOT here. Have you seen the kingdom of Heaven and the kingdom of God used as one and the same, and, especially given your distinctions, do you see this as tenable at all? I’ve seen them used interchangeably and I’m not easy with this. I want to be sharp on this now. If I just give you three scripture:

Mark 1:14,15
14 After John was put in prison, Jesus went into Galilee, proclaiming the good news of God.
15 The time has come, he said. The kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe the good news!

Matthew 5:1,2,3
Now when he saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. His disciples came to him,
2 and he began to teach them, saying:
3Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 10: 5,6,7
5 These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans.
6 Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel.
7 As you go, preach this message: 'The kingdom of heaven is near.'

Is Jesus in Mark talking about Heaven itself? This is the afterlife? And if that’s the case, is Jesus in Matthew (both scripture) referring to the fulfilment of God’s covenants with Israel - perhaps rather obviously in light of Matt. 10:6? Or is it as simple as this? Anything I’m missing?

DannyM wrote:Have you seen the kingdom of Heaven and the kingdom of God used as one and the same, and, especially given your distinctions, do you see this as tenable at all?

Yes, there are several churches that teach the kingdom with no distinction which I believe has lead to confusion for some. The kingdom has certainly at times been assumed to be the church but I believe that is the case because they were assuming the universality of the kingdom of God to be synonymous with the Body of Christ but there's quite a difference between the Greek words for kingdom, "basileia" and church,"ekklesia" used in the New Testament.

The expression 'kingdom of heaven' only occurs in Matthew's Gospel and is mentioned there 32 times. The expression 'kingdom of God' occurs only 5 times in his Gospel. The explanation for this difference is that Jesus would have spoken in the Aramaic language especially when speaking to the common people and not in the Greek as is recorded in the Gospels. The word 'heaven' is frequently but not always used as a figure of speech called a Metonymy or Change of Noun (of the subject),when one name or noun is used instead of another, to which it stands in a certain relation, when the subject is put for something pertaining to it. Compare Matt 11:11 (KJV) with Luke 7:28 (KJV).

Therefore, it would seem correct that in all the passages where the respective expressions occur, identical words were spoken by the Lord, "the Kingdom of heaven"; but when it came to putting them into Greek, Matthew was Divinely guided to retain the figure of speech literally ("heaven"), so as to be in keeping with the special character, design, and scope of his Gospel while, in the other Gospels, the figure was translated as being what it also meant, "the Kingdom of God". So, as they are similar in a general sense, the two expressions should be distinguished in their meaning and interpretation which I highlighted in point form.

DannyM wrote:Is Jesus in Mark talking about Heaven itself? This is the afterlife? And if that’s the case, is Jesus in Matthew (both scripture) referring to the fulfilment of God’s covenants with Israel - perhaps rather obviously in light of Matt. 10:6? Or is it as simple as this? Anything I’m missing?

Well, in the sermon on the mount in Matt 5 I believe the kingdom of heaven is mentioned 7 times. Though He would be speaking to Israelites esp. those of Judah, I believe it can and probably should be interpreted in the prophetic sense of all those who become Christians and are engrafted into the seed of Abraham, thus Israelites, so yes it is certainly referring to the fulfillment of at least the Old Testament covenants but not necessarily relating to the second advent.

Jesus could very well be speaking about heaven itself in the quote from Mark because He emphasizes the expression "repent and believe", not just repent or believe but both.The word 'heaven' is generally in this connection in the plural, "of (or from) the heavens".

Hope that helps.

Just wanted to add, your questions got me thinking more about the kingdom Dan, so there's a couple of points of interest that might flesh out this thread with regards to the difference between the kingdom of heaven and God.

In Luke 17 Jesus is confronted by the Pharisees and they ask him:

Luke 17:20 (KJV) And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

Luke 17:21 (KJV) Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

From earlier in the chapter Jesus was on his way to Jerusalem and I believe He's being questioned about this directly in the temple. I find it hard to accept that if He is speaking to the Pharisees directly, he is telling them that the kingdom of God is within them, when according to previous chapters in Luke, the Pharisees wanted to kill Him. Therefore, I believe there is a mistranslation of the word "within" which should really be read as the word "among". In other words, Christ was saying that the kingdom of God was Him, who was standing right in front of them; among them. This then would be the kingdom of heaven, not the kingdom of God that He is speaking about here because it has Christ as its King.

When Jesus is being questioned by Pilate in John's Gospel however, He doesn't tell Pilate that the kingdom of God is "within" Pilate. Instead, Jesus says:

John 18:36 (KJV) Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

So Jesus is not referring specifically to Himself here as He did to the Pharisees, so it is not the kingdom of heaven but the kingdom of God that Jesus is expressing to Pilate.

I hope that illustates the difference.

The expression 'kingdom of heaven' only occurs in Matthew's Gospel and is mentioned there 32 times. The expression 'kingdom of God' occurs only 5 times in his Gospel. The explanation for this difference is that Jesus would have spoken in the Aramaic language especially when speaking to the common people and not in the Greek as is recorded in the Gospels. The word 'heaven' is frequently but not always used as a figure of speech called a Metonymy or Change of Noun (of the subject),when one name or noun is used instead of another, to which it stands in a certain relation, when the subject is put for something pertaining to it. Compare Matt 11:11 (KJV) with Luke 7:28 (KJV).

Therefore, it would seem correct that in all the passages where the respective expressions occur, identical words were spoken by the Lord, "the Kingdom of heaven"; but when it came to putting them into Greek, Matthew was Divinely guided to retain the figure of speech literally ("heaven"), so as to be in keeping with the special character, design, and scope of his Gospel while, in the other Gospels, the figure was translated as being what it also meant, "the Kingdom of God". So, as they are similar in a general sense, the two expressions should be distinguished in their meaning and interpretation which I highlighted in point form.

Right. When speaking to the ordinary people our Lord would have used the ’kingdom of heaven’ to stand for God’s kingdom itself, not just when referring to His ‘earthly’ kingdom?

Well, in the sermon on the mount in Matt 5 I believe the kingdom of heaven is mentioned 7 times. Though He would be speaking to Israelites esp. those of Judah, I believe it can and probably should be interpreted in the prophetic sense of all those who become Christians and are engrafted into the seed of Abraham, thus Israelites, so yes it is certainly referring to the fulfillment of at least the Old Testament covenants but not necessarily relating to the second advent.

I see. I must say this does suggest there is some area for confusion. What I need to do is go and study every instance where the ‘kingdom of heaven’ and the ‘kingdom of God’ is used.

In Luke 17 Jesus is confronted by the Pharisees and they ask him:

Luke 17:20 (KJV) And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

Luke 17:21 (KJV) Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

From earlier in the chapter Jesus was on his way to Jerusalem and I believe He's being questioned about this directly in the temple. I find it hard to accept that if He is speaking to the Pharisees directly, he is telling them that the kingdom of God is within them, when according to previous chapters in Luke, the Pharisees wanted to kill Him. Therefore, I believe there is a mistranslation of the word "within" which should really be read as the word "among". In other words, Christ was saying that the kingdom of God was Him, who was standing right in front of them; among them. This then would be the kingdom of heaven, not the kingdom of God that He is speaking about here because it has Christ as its King.

I agree. Jesus must be talking of the kingdom of heaven, since He speaks of this kingdom being observed to come. So one has to be careful when reading these words. Great spot, Bro!

When Jesus is being questioned by Pilate in John's Gospel however, He doesn't tell Pilate that the kingdom of God is "within" Pilate. Instead, Jesus says:

John 18:36 (KJV) Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

So Jesus is not referring specifically to Himself here as He did to the Pharisees, so it is not the kingdom of heaven but the kingdom of God that Jesus is expressing to Pilate.

I hope that illustrates the difference.

These examples illustrate this nicely, Katabole. I’m getting a nice little flow for this now. It’s becoming a lot clearer.