Evidence for God from Science

What about those who never had access to the Gospel or never heard of Jesus? More specifically, if the Gospel and knowledge of Jesus is necessary for salvation - and God truly wants to save "ALL" persons - then why did He withhold this knowledge from so many millions?

Sorry in advance for the length of this post, but I just wanted to throw out the above question along with my thoughts, as I see over and over accusations made by unbelievers, concerning those who never have had the Gospel made available to them, although I'm sure this subject has been dealt with here somewhere before.

Scripture tells us that: 1) God desires and COMMANDS that "ALL men EVERYWHERE" come to repentance (Acts 17:30) and that He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked (Ezekiel 33:11); 2) People don't believe because THEY suppress the truth (Romans 1:18) and have unrepentant hearts (Romans 2:5); 3) Paul tells us, for those without the Gospel, that what can be known about God (through the "General Revelation," etc) - His basic attributes and knowledge of Him - are clear to them (Romans 1:19-20), and yet knowing these, "they did not honor Him as God or give thanks to Him," and so these heathen have rejected the light ALREADY given to them (Romans 1: 19-21); 4) God is not limited by geographic location or circumstances, as He is as close as our very breath (Acts 17:26-27) - meaning that no matter how remote or wherever in the world one lives, IF one truly desires to know more about Him - He will send a missionary, a Bible, a tract, a website - whatever, whomever and however he chooses to, He WILL send the Gospel to one who is truly "WILLING," receptive and He foreknows will positively respond to it (Jeremiah 29:13; Luke 11:9; Matthew 7:7-8; Psalm 145:18-19; Hebrews 11:6).

And then we have this remarkable passage in Romans 10: "For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us? So, faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ. But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have, for "Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world. But I ask, did Israel not understand? First Moses says, I will make you jealous of those who are not a nation; with a foolish nation I will make you angry.Then Isaiah is so bold as to say, I have been found by those who did not seek me; I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me.
(Romans 10:13-20 ESV)

We also know that: 1) No one comes to the Father except through the Son (Jesus); 2) And as the story of Cornelius (Acts 10), whom Scripture describes as a devout man who feared God with all his household, gave alms generously to the people, and prayed continually to God, shows, that though God-seeking and honoring, nonetheless was NOT saved UNTIL he FIRST heard and positively responded to Peter's preaching of the Gospel. And we see no evidence in Scripture of anyone being saved or having faith in Jesus without first having received and heard the Gospel from others. And this is still true today.

So, we combine the two elements above (that ALL men know of God and His basic attributes, and yet to be saved one first must hear or know of the Gospel and it's requirement/faith in Jesus), and unless God saves some in a way hidden to us, it appears that ALL must FIRST hear and understand the Gospel before being saved. Scripture also teaches that God desires ALL men come to repentance and to be saved - but it also tells us that ALL won't be (why, they reject God!). And YET, we also know that, at least since the Resurrection, that countless millions have lived and died (just as many are still doing) without ever hearing the Gospel. Atheists bring this up all the time - asserting that any supposed God, who demands an action (faith, repentance/ACTIVE belief and faith in Jesus) and an understanding (the Gospel) HIDDEN or NEVER GIVEN to them, but yet of which NON-compliance to means an eternity of separation and punishment, would be a hideous monster akin to Hitler.

My take on the above is, as Scripture also tells us that God appointed the times and geographic placements of all men, that the very reason God withholds specific knowledge of Jesus and the Gospel FROM ANYONE (whether they have live in the past, present or future)is that 1) is that they've rejected the light He's ALREADY given them; 2) He WOULD send them MORE knowledge of Himself (including the Gospel) but yet that it would not profit such people - being akin to casting "pearls before swine" - as He foreknows they would only reject the Gospel as well. (Again, see Romans 1) Also, let's remember that God sees ALL of human history (actually, EVERYTHING past, present and future) on ONE pages, ALL at once. He is ALL-knowing, no knowledge can escape Him. So He knew ALL human decisions, responses and actions over the entire lifetimes of each, ALWAYS - as there was never a moment that He has not known ALL.

I see God's withholding of the Gospel as being much like a scenario involving a kindly, well-off man who has made it clear that he desperately desires to help a destitute, homeless man - by offering him help, shelter, knowledge and resources that could dramatically transform his life out of poverty and living on the street. But yet, IF such a benevolent man could also unmistakably foresee that the homeless man he wants and has initially tried to help would only cynically reject his further overtures of help, and thus simply squander, drink, drug and gamble away any and all resources he might provide him, would the potential benefactor then waste any further efforts at reaching out to such a man, to one whom he foreknows with certainty would only cynically curse him while screaming, "I don't need your help - I'm doing fine on my own!"? So it's likely the very same for those never given the Gospel, as they didn't respect or appreciate the knowledge of Himself that God had ALREADY given them, and so giving them further and more specific knowledge would be quite pointless. And our all-knowing God has the discernment of the human heart to know just who such individuals will be - and He has ALWAYS known who they would be. And thus He scattered them appropriately throughout time and place to fulfill His overall divine plan.

(Edited 11-3-14 to add:)

In fact, the very physical and geographic PLACEMENT by God, of men, in time and place, - though appearing to us as typically being an insurmountable obstacle to faith - God considers as part of His very plan. He says the purpose of His divine placements is so "that they should seek God, and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him." We forget, distance and place is NO obstacle for God. And Romans tells us all know of His existence and some of His basic attributes. Not to mention communicating with God is as close as our very breath: "Yet he is actually not far from each one of us ..." If ANYONE wants to know God and to seek Him out, their remote location in culture, time, place or religion is NO obstacle for them to seek God. It's certainly no obstacle for Him. I believe if one wants to know God and to know what they need to know to be saved, He'll provide it - whatever that takes and whatever it entails. However, Scripture indicates that most DON'T want to know God or want to honor Him in all that He has ALREADY provided them.

One last thing is that, as there are NO obstacles to ANYONE desiring to reach out to know God - as He both wants them to and He desires to reach back (FAR more than He already has reached to them by initially providing EVERYONE with basic knowledge about His existence and provision). This MIGHT include God reaching to some people in many ways which are not presently known to us - as they aren't seen, observed or recorded. God MIGHT even reach to people He still knows might positively respond to Him, even when they are at the cusp of death - perhaps even when unconscious. But we know that this cannot happen AFTER death ("And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment ..." Hebrews 9:27). IF God personally reaches to people, in such a way, with the Gospel without using Christians to do so - well, we just don't know and can't definitively say it to be true. Again, we can never go beyond what Scripture teaches and we must trust God and His motives for how He has placed people in the world. We know for a fact His placements have NEVER been so that ANYONE would have withheld from them the keys or understanding they would need to be saved. Belief that GOD blocks people's ability to RECEIVE eternal life is a lie the devil loves to proliferate - as he wants us to doubt God's love for men. People that die without God simply don't want Him - they have elected to permanently remain their own little gods, never wanting to answer to any God they didn't see in the mirror every morning.

I've read through your post and the question you asked:

Philip wrote:What about those who never had access to the Gospel nor ever heard it? More specifically, if the Gospel is necessary for salvation and God truly wants to save "ALL," then why did He withhold it from so many millions?

You have answered it yourself - quite well! - here:

Philip wrote:I see God's withholding of the Gospel as being much like a scenario involving a kindly, well-off man who has made it clear that he desperately desires to help a destitute, homeless man - by offering him help, shelter, knowledge and resources that could dramatically transform his life out of poverty and living on the street. But yet IF such a benevolent man could also unmistakably foresee that the homeless man he wants to help would only cynically reject his overtures of help, and thus simply squander, drink, drug and gamble away any and all resources he might provide him, would the potential benefactor then waste any further efforts at reaching out to such a man, to one whom would only cynically curse him while screaming that "I don't need your help - I'm doing fine on my own!"?

I would add that over many generations, destitute men would have devised myriad ways to ignore and ridicule that kindly Philanthropist-in-heaven. As time sanctifies everything* so man's lies are now held in greater esteem than the Gospel.

Prerequisites to salvation include looking for God (Isaiah 45:22) and a trusting in Him (Jeremiah 17:14).

FL

*Will Durant said it best: ''Time sanctifies everything; even the most arrant theft, in the hands of the robbers grandchildren, becomes sacred and inviolable property.''

I'll comment just a bit further upon the fact that God has MERCIFULLY placed all men in their specific geographic places and times:

By "clustering" together heathen peoples - those who God foreknew would stubbornly remain unrepentant and rebellious - not to mention how He "sprinkled" them across time, He has thus often protected - or certainly has greatly minimized - the dangers and damage the worst and most-evil impulses of such people and their nations might well have inflicted upon those more docile nations and/or or peoples where Christianity eventually arose. Similarly, God's geographic limiting the placement of the most-damaging of evil people AMIDST those in nations historically peopled by those more benign or at least less overtly/aggressive or of evil intent, also has protected the world. Even amidst evil nations, and for all of their brutality, God has mercifully protected those within them, as even brutal kings and dictators have used an iron fist to keep the peace within their lands. But remove such evil leaders in heathen nations and we see that what follows can become even worst than rule from a thug (Iraq comes to mind) - the people and factions within begin killing each other.

God's strategic placement of men has helped keep in check a balance of powers, so that no great evil nation has yet triumphed, because just as God clustered together those with evil intentions, He also clustered together those that either would follow Him, be used in His overall plans, or who would at least not extinguish the development and growth of Christians in Christian-populated nations. Historically, great oceans, rivers, mountains and vast distances have been important protective elements of more peaceful nations from aggressively evil nations and peoples.

Before modern warfare technology, and certainly before the development of long-ranging ships, planes, submarines, bombs and missiles, these protective geographic elements made it much more difficult for evil powers to dominate from tremendous distances. Today, however, modern technology makes it possible for peoples a world away to severely threaten us (militant Islam comes to mind). Today, we can easily see how much more nations historically without any (or without any significant) Christian influences are the world's largest threats. Is it any wonder that the two greatest evil powers to threaten the world, over the past 100 years (Hitler and Militant Islam) have both shared a core philosophy and fierce hatred and obsession with wiping out God's chosen nation of Israel? Coincidence? Hardly! And yet, God is in control, and no army can stand up to Him or can circumvent His will.

Philip wrote:By "clustering" together heathen peoples - those who God foreknew would stubbornly remain unrepentant and rebellious - not to mention how He "sprinkled" them across time, He has thus often protected - or certainly has greatly minimized - the dangers and damage the worst and most-evil impulses of such people and their nations might well have inflicted upon those more docile nations and/or or peoples where Christianity eventually arose.

Interesting...what biblical references would support this exegesis?

FL

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:

Philip wrote:By "clustering" together heathen peoples - those who God foreknew would stubbornly remain unrepentant and rebellious - not to mention how He "sprinkled" them across time, He has thus often protected - or certainly has greatly minimized - the dangers and damage the worst and most-evil impulses of such people and their nations might well have inflicted upon those more docile nations and/or or peoples where Christianity eventually arose.

Interesting...what biblical references would support this exegesis?

FL

Acts 17:24, 25, 26, 27 verse 26 would be one....

Deut 32:8 alludes to this as well...
-
-
-

Hello, Furstentum Liechtenstein. I conclude my assertions from what the Bible says about how God has placed men in history and how He also controls its very outcome. Also, I look at history itself. Perhaps I am overreaching or speculative, but I believe in general what I am saying makes sense.

First of all, Acts 17: 26-27 tells us that God placed men in their specific places in time and history, "...having determined allotted periods and a the boundaries of their dwelling place, that they should seek God..." And speaking of earthly authorities, we're told in Romans 13: 1-2 that "those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed." In John 19:11 Jesus tells Pilate,"You would have no authority over me at all unless it had been given you from above." Daniel 2:21 says that God "removes kings and sets up kings."

Secondly, what I am contending about how God has protected His people and facilitated and orchestrated the situations and conditions that have allowed Christianity to grow does not in any way mean I am asserting that God hasn't allowed men to freely choose their own actions or that they haven't willfully sinned on their OWN accord - they HAVE. But the very fact that God installs leaders and places all men in time and place, and that He controls and even uses man's freely chosen choices and often-evil actions to obtain His desired outcomes, tells me that events are not just random - and that God is indeed in control of ALL.

So the above also means that God's placements of men show that HE is the One who has clustered unbelieving heathens into the various nations. And, historically, great distances and immense geographical barriers limited the ability of aggressive heathen peoples to harm the more benign nations around them. And depending upon how hateful, rebellious and powerful they are - and how many of them have been clustered - they have often historically posed horrific threats to mankind. But all aggressive heathen nations have eventually met their match. None last. All are eventually defeated or neutralized. Heathens have often checkmated the aggressive intentions of each other, but all along, even in the midst of aggression and evil, God has allowed for conditions fruitful to extending His influence and belief in Him across the earth. Even within ancient Rome, God protected and preserved conditions enough so that Christianity could take hold and thrive, conquering the sword with love. And yet we have seen how the clustering of those with evil intents has also given rise to Hitler, to the USSR, to Militant Islam, etc. But God has also limited and checked the powers of each of His clusterings of evil people. Colossians 1:17 tells us that "in Him all things hold together" - which also explains why today's earth, despite its many serious threats, is still here.

B. W. wrote:Deut 32:8 alludes to this as well...

I especially like Dt 32:8 because it seems to suggest that Philip' ideas on God's ''placement'' of heathen nations around the world are correct. I also found Eze 6:8 (and its context) suggest that God placed limits - for their own safety - on how many Jews would live in a given heathen nation. Doubtless there are many more such references that a careful study would bring out.

Philip wrote:So the above also means that God's placements of men show that HE is the One who has clustered unbelieving heathens into the various nations. And, historically, great distances and immense geographical barriers limited the ability of aggressive heathen peoples to harm the more benign nations around them. And depending upon how hateful, rebellious and powerful they are - and how many of them have been clustered - they have often historically posed horrific threats to mankind. But all aggressive heathen nations have eventually met their match. None last. All are eventually defeated or neutralized. Heathens have often checkmated the aggressive intentions of each other, but all along, even in the midst of aggression and evil, God has allowed for conditions fruitful to extending His influence and belief in Him across the earth. Even within ancient Rome, God protected and preserved conditions enough so that Christianity could take hold and thrive, conquering the sword with love. And yet we have seen how the clustering of those with evil intents has also given rise to Hitler, to the USSR, to Militant Islam, etc. But God has also limited and checked the powers of each of His clusterings of evil people. Colossians 1:17 tells us that "in Him all things hold together" - which also explains why today's earth, despite its many serious threats, is still here.

There is a mosque 3 blocks from where I live. Another mosque is about 7 blocks from my house. In France, roadsigns have been erected which give information in both French and Arabic. I was in Brussels last summer and some neighbourhoods are so Muslim that I could have sworn I was in Morocco: men in djellabas and women wearing hijabs, nary a European in sight. We drove to Paris and parked - unknowingly - in a Muslim neighbourhood. The walk back to our car that evening was a scary experience. So the heathen are now living among us. (If truth be told, most of ''us'' are heathen anyway having never placed our trust in God and going to our graves full of sin and a gamut of idolatries.) Multiculturalism in Western nations is a great way to further the destruction from within.

I'm not complaining. I agree with you that God uses history to further His plan of salvation. What was new to me is your idea that God placed heathen nations where He wanted them in order to work out His own purpose. It does make sense on the surface...

FL

And I remember wondering (during the last presidential election) how many Christians ever pray for "God's candidates to win" instead of the ones they PERSONALLY desire. I mean, just as Romans 13:1-2 reveals, God sure puts a lot of people in office and authority that often seems unthinkable - or maybe even catastrophic - to you and me (Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, etc. come to mind). But God can use one of His own or one in deliberate rebellion to accomplish His purposes. And He can use actions and things meant for bad to accomplish good. Bottom line, GOD is in control. Amen to that!

Philip wrote:Bottom line, GOD is in control. Amen to that!

Agreed. Once this truth is grasped in the heart and mind of a believer, there is no longer any reason to get all worked up about what's going on in the world.

FL

"We must start by saying that we do not know for sure. The New Testament never addresses the question directly, as it concerns people who have heard the gospel message. This is something that we should always bear in mind when asked. Asking the question could be a diversionary tactic for friends who are trying to escape the gospel's claims on their lives. We must always emphasise to them that this problem does not excuse them from making a response. Scripture is very clear on what happens to those who knowingly reject the gospel message:

He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting punishment and shut out from the presence of the Lord...

The God of the Bible is a God of justice, not some capricious being who casts people into hell on a whim, depending on the mood he is in that day. Isaiah tells us that 'the Lord is a God of justice'. He is also 'the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness'. There is no question that what he does on that final day will be fair, even though we may not understand all of his thoughts. We can be like Abraham in front of Sodom and confidently assert, 'will not the Judge of all the earth do right?"

...

reference: http://www.bethinking.org/suffering/int ... gospel.htm

1over137, yes, the real question for one faced with the questions surrounding Christianity (as they clearly are at least peripherally aware of the basic teachings of the Bible/its claims about Christ) is "What do YOU say about the Bible's commands about repentance and belief in Jesus: (per Romans 2:14) What is YOUR response?"

We must start by saying that we do not know for sure.

Well, this can ONLY be correct IF God saves some in a way He has not revealed to us or not modeled for us in scripture. What we do know for sure is that there is NOT ONE scriptural example of anyone (post the beginning of Jesus' ministry) being saved without first hearing and then positively responding (repenting/believing with active faith) to God's message of salvation.

We also know that God has revealed to ALL men that He exists and about His basic attributes (Romans 1:19). And even those without God's word instinctively know it's basics of right and wrong, (Romans 2:14). We also know that although such people (without the Gospel) ALREADY know of God and His basics of right and wrong, yet their response has been that "they neither glorified Him as God nor gave thanks to Him, but their thinking became futile" and so "their foolish hearts were darkened" (Romans 1:21). This means those without the Gospel, unless they seek God, have ALREADY rejected the revelation and light about Him which He has ALREADY provided them.

So, my contention is that when you combine the facts that: those without the Gospel ALREADY know of God (and of His basic attributes and the sense of right and wrong He has given them), and that they COULD pursue Him, to honor Him and know more about Him , but that they REFUSE TO (as evidence, they die without knowledge of the Gospel), and as God knows ALL men's hearts and whether or not they have FOREVER refused Him and "exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator" (Romans 1:25) - be it ancient idols, power, money - or WHATEVER), and as God knows any FURTHER information and enlightenment about Himself which He might give them (i.e., the Gospel), would only be rejected as well....that THESE are the reasons only those with the Gospel can be saved, as ONLY they desire to know God and are thus willing to obey what He reveals to them. Those never provided the Gospel, God knows their hearts of rejection and as to whether or not such rejection is FINAL. If so, the Gospel would be totally useless to them, and thus is not provided to them.

Again, even Cornelius, who scripture describes as having been "devout and God-fearing" and who prayed regularly, was not saved until after FIRST hearing the Gospel preached by Peter (Acts 1). And note what Peter says this episode surrounding Cornelius made him understand: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism but accepts men from EVERY nation who fear him and do what is right" (Acts 10:34). This also tells us that for those without the Gospel, who desire to know more about what God has ALREADY revealed to them, CAN know and God WILL reveal to them IF they desire it and pursue it (by doing "what is right" - by prayerfully pursuing God, as did Cornelius - as He is as near as OUR very own BREATH!).

There is no question that what he does on that final day will be fair, even though we may not understand all of his thoughts.

Amen to that!

I have probably brought this question up more than anybody else in my county. From everything I leanred, and what really makes the most sence of being just to me, is my "idolatrus" view that those who never had a chance for exposure will be reincarnated with a life oppurtunity to have access to christ. It is fair, it is just, and it makes sence

Murray wrote:From everything I leanred, and what really makes the most sence of being just to me, is my "idolatrus" view that those who never had a chance for exposure will be reincarnated with a life oppurtunity to have access to christ. It is fair, it is just, and it makes sence

How many reincarnations would God offer? One? three? seven? seven times seventy? What do you make of these verses which say that one chance is all you have:

Job 7:8-9
Job 14:12
Hebrews 9:27

None of the references you posted in the Purgatory topic have anything to do with reincarnation. Think this through.

FL

Umm.... I'm pretty sure I stated until one has the opprutunity to make the choice to accept christ or not..... So really probably once....

None of those quotes you posted answers anything either........
The hosea one was probably the only one that came close to addressing it and death refers to the body not the soul. The body dies once yes, the soul recieves judgement yes, and you know my belief from there. '

It is fair, it is just, and it makes sence

Makes sense to you. It certainly isn't biblical. And it certainly doesn't make sense in the arena of Christian thought and scholarship. It would be viewed as aberrant or heretical.

Scripture says, "it is appointed ONCE for a man to die, THEN the judgment.

To then say,

None of those quotes you posted answers anything either......

shows that you are unwilling to submit to the scripture, but prefer your own reasoning, which contradicts the scripture. Friend, this is the rebuke. You need to repent of that view. It is wrong.