Evidence for God from Science

Silvertusk wrote:
Purgatory is a Catholic dogma and not one which we all ascribe to - because it implies that Jesus's work on the cross was not enough to save us. Personally I think your best chances are to fall on the saving grace of Jesus Christ. But whatever happens you can be sure that God will be just and fair.

Silvertusk.


It implies no such thing but let's leave that for another thread.

Ask, and ye shall receive.

Byblos, would you agree with this article?
http://www.trinity.la/purgatory.htm

Specifically this part:

The Catholic Church teaches that when we die there are three places where we can be sent by God. That is we can be sent to Heaven if we are already sanctified at the moment of death, unfortunately we can be sent to Hell if we have rejected God in our lives and refused to repent before we die, or we can be sent to a temporary place of suffering called Purgatory where our souls are purified of the damage we have done to them by our sins.

If any of you have access to Catechism of the Catholic Church, Pugatory is covered in points 1030, 1031, 1032 and 1472. A reading of them will clarify misunderstandings that Christians of non-RC churches may have. I have the book but it is in French. Here is point 1030 verbatim followed by my translation:

''Ceux qui meurent dans la grâce et l'amitié de Dieu, mais imparfaitement purifiés, bien qu'assurés de leur salut éternel, souffrent après leur mort une purification, afin d'obtenir la sainteté nécessaire pour entrer dans la joie du ciel.''

''Those who die in the grace and love of God but imperfectly purified, though assured of their eternal salvation, must undergo after death a purification so as to obtain the holiness needed to enter into the presence of God.''

Reader beware: I am not a translator. I've attempted a balance between formal equivalence and functional equivalence, above. I'll get around to translating the other entries unless someone has them in English. The point I want to make is that most people don't have a clue about what the RCC says about Purgatory and so we end up debating each others' prejudices...unknowingly.

FL

RickD wrote:http://www.trinity.la/purgatory.htm

I checked the link you provided and they have the Catechism of the Catholic Church as an external link. Look in the column on the right under External Links and click on Catechism of the Catholic Church (with Index) and then select the points I refered to in my post,

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote: Pugatory is covered in points 1030, 1031, 1032 and 1472.

Happy reading.

FL

RickD wrote:

Silvertusk wrote:
Purgatory is a Catholic dogma and not one which we all ascribe to - because it implies that Jesus's work on the cross was not enough to save us. Personally I think your best chances are to fall on the saving grace of Jesus Christ. But whatever happens you can be sure that God will be just and fair.

Silvertusk.


It implies no such thing but let's leave that for another thread.

Ask, and ye shall receive.

Byblos, would you agree with this article?
http://www.trinity.la/purgatory.htm

Specifically this part:

The Catholic Church teaches that when we die there are three places where we can be sent by God. That is we can be sent to Heaven if we are already sanctified at the moment of death, unfortunately we can be sent to Hell if we have rejected God in our lives and refused to repent before we die, or we can be sent to a temporary place of suffering called Purgatory where our souls are purified of the damage we have done to them by our sins.

I won't speculate what other sources say what purgatory is and FL is right, if you want the formal doctrinal definition the Catechism is your source. But I do want to comment on what Silver said above (that it implies that Christ's work is not enough and my reply that it implies no such thing). The reason it doesn't imply that is because one's destination from purgatory is not up for debate. Catholics believe that persons who do go to purgatory are most definitely going to heaven so Christ's work is certainly enough. Their stay is not temporary in the sense that a decision must still be made. No, they are going to heaven, period. The question is is heaven ready for them. Since nothing impure can enter heaven (Rev. 21:27) and since we are sinners by nature and none of us die in a state of complete purity, purgatory is such a place to prepare us for entry into heaven and the beatific vision. And again, purgatory may not necessarily be a specific length of time since in that realm time is meaningless. It could just as well be an instantaneous thing en route to heaven. It is exactly the same as the Bema Seat Judgment of Christ when after death one faces Christ and must account for his or her deeds. I don't know about you but the prospect of facing Christ and having to answer for my actions is both a great and a terrifying thing for me. That's exactly how I see purgatory, no more and no less.

I guess the next question I have is who goes directly to heaven when they die, and who goes to heaven via purgatory? And, why? I mean what enables certain people to go directly to heaven, while others have to be purified in purgatory.

RickD wrote:I guess the next question I have is who goes directly to heaven when they die, and who goes to heaven via purgatory? And, why? I mean what enables certain people to go directly to heaven, while others have to be purified in purgatory.

There is no official church teaching that says anyone can avoid purgatory just as no one can escape the Bema Seat Judgment of Christ. The church, by virtue of infallibility, does definitively declare from time to time that certain individuals (Saints) are in heaven.

Byblos wrote:

RickD wrote:I guess the next question I have is who goes directly to heaven when they die, and who goes to heaven via purgatory? And, why? I mean what enables certain people to go directly to heaven, while others have to be purified in purgatory.

There is no official church teaching that says anyone can avoid purgatory just as no one can escape the Bema Seat Judgment of Christ. The church, by virtue of infallibility, does definitively declare from time to time that certain individuals (Saints) are in heaven.

Sorry, Byblos, you lost me on this. Are you saying that 1) the catholic church is infallible? And 2) the church decides who is a "saint", and therefore, who went directly to heaven?

If I'm not mistaken, the bema seat you refer to, deals with rewards a believer will receive while in heaven. I'm not seeing a similarity to the catholic purgatory. What am I missing?

Byblos,
Sorry for all the questions, and I appreciate your patience with me as I'm learning about Catholicism. This is from a Catholic website, but I'm not sure if it's officially Catholic. Is this what Catholicism teaches about salvation?:

Catholics believe that by being Baptized, receiving the Eucharist that most perfect sacrament, confession, keeping His commandments, doing good and avoiding evil, prayer and loving the Lord your God with every fiber of your existence will take you to Heaven.

It's from this website, for reference:
http://servantsofstmichael.com/how-do-c ... eaven.html

Byblos wrote:

RickD wrote:

Silvertusk wrote:
Purgatory is a Catholic dogma and not one which we all ascribe to - because it implies that Jesus's work on the cross was not enough to save us. Personally I think your best chances are to fall on the saving grace of Jesus Christ. But whatever happens you can be sure that God will be just and fair.

Silvertusk.


It implies no such thing but let's leave that for another thread.

Ask, and ye shall receive.

Byblos, would you agree with this article?
http://www.trinity.la/purgatory.htm

Specifically this part:

The Catholic Church teaches that when we die there are three places where we can be sent by God. That is we can be sent to Heaven if we are already sanctified at the moment of death, unfortunately we can be sent to Hell if we have rejected God in our lives and refused to repent before we die, or we can be sent to a temporary place of suffering called Purgatory where our souls are purified of the damage we have done to them by our sins.

I won't speculate what other sources say what purgatory is and FL is right, if you want the formal doctrinal definition the Catechism is your source. But I do want to comment on what Silver said above (that it implies that Christ's work is not enough and my reply that it implies no such thing). The reason it doesn't imply that is because one's destination from purgatory is not up for debate. Catholics believe that persons who do go to purgatory are most definitely going to heaven so Christ's work is certainly enough. Their stay is not temporary in the sense that a decision must still be made. No, they are going to heaven, period. The question is is heaven ready for them. Since nothing impure can enter heaven (Rev. 21:27) and since we are sinners by nature and none of us die in a state of complete purity, purgatory is such a place to prepare us for entry into heaven and the beatific vision. And again, purgatory may not necessarily be a specific length of time since in that realm time is meaningless. It could just as well be an instantaneous thing en route to heaven. It is exactly the same as the Bema Seat Judgment of Christ when after death one faces Christ and must account for his or her deeds. I don't know about you but the prospect of facing Christ and having to answer for my actions is both a great and a terrifying thing for me. That's exactly how I see purgatory, no more and no less.

Hi Byblos

Have to say that all you said above is absolutley true for Catholics - but as a protestant (baptist) I do not ascribe to it - and so my original statement stands (although all of course IMHO) - Purgatory implies to me that the work on the cross was not enough as there is still work to be done. Jesus brought all the sins of humanity onto him past present and future that those that beleive in him shall never die but have eternal life. "It is Finished" he said - and I believe that. Purgatory is an addition made by the Catholic church and not scripture as far as protestants are concerned.

We have had discussions about the differences between the denominations before and I think it is important to make it clear between Catholic and Protestant dogma that there are different views on this although Purgatory is certainly one such view.

For me personally (and the Anglicans are just as bad) it seems to be another layer of "tradition" added on by the religious institutions distancing us from God. But I better stop here as I can feel myself getting rilled up about it all and do not want to offend.

God Bless

Silvertusk.

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/ccc_toc2.htm

The above link will bring those interested directly to the Catechism of the Catholic Church's index page. The Catechism has the Imprimatur - so it is official - and will be your best source of information about things Catholic. It is best to avoid bizarre websites when learning about stuff...

FL

This whole section makes my blood go cold. It is virtually idol worship.

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p6.htm

Silvertusk.

RickD wrote:

Byblos wrote:

RickD wrote:I guess the next question I have is who goes directly to heaven when they die, and who goes to heaven via purgatory? And, why? I mean what enables certain people to go directly to heaven, while others have to be purified in purgatory.

There is no official church teaching that says anyone can avoid purgatory just as no one can escape the Bema Seat Judgment of Christ. The church, by virtue of infallibility, does definitively declare from time to time that certain individuals (Saints) are in heaven.

Sorry, Byblos, you lost me on this. Are you saying that 1) the catholic church is infallible?

Catholics believe the church is infallible as established by Christ himself and guided by the Holy Spirit. Infallibility is making doctrinal pronouncements by the Pope when done Ex Cathedra, or by the Magisterium. Please read this and this for more in depth information on infallibility.

RickD wrote:[And 2) the church decides who is a "saint", and therefore, who went directly to heaven?

The church doesn’t decide anything; it makes statements on what is revealed. When a person is declared a saint it says nothing on whether or not he or she was in purgatory, it only says that right now they are in heaven.

RickD wrote:[If I'm not mistaken, the bema seat you refer to, deals with rewards a believer will receive while in heaven. I'm not seeing a similarity to the catholic purgatory. What am I missing?

Yes of course, rewards for good deeds and admonishment for bad ones. Curiously enough, the same scripture is used to defend both, e.g. 1 Cor 3:11-15 (that suggests some sort of pain or discomfort) and Mat 5:25-26, 12:31-32. More on purgatory here and here.

RickD wrote:Byblos,
Sorry for all the questions, and I appreciate your patience with me as I'm learning about Catholicism.

Not a problem at all Rick (and the same goes for you Silver or anyone else). Look, I’ve been here for quite some time and am well aware of the differences we have and very well acquainted with most the arguments against Catholicism. Anyone who knows me on here knows I’m not here to argue or advance Catholicism and I do make it a point of not discussing it unless someone asks and only in an effort to clarify, not debate. So with that in mind …

RickD wrote:This is from a Catholic website, but I'm not sure if it's officially Catholic. Is this what Catholicism teaches about salvation?:

Catholics believe that by being Baptized, receiving the Eucharist that most perfect sacrament, confession, keeping His commandments, doing good and avoiding evil, prayer and loving the Lord your God with every fiber of your existence will take you to Heaven.

It's from this website, for reference:
http://servantsofstmichael.com/how-do-c ... eaven.html

What this comes down to is whether or not one believes in OSAS (actually it really comes down to a matter of authority but we’ll get to that eventually I’m sure). If one believes in OSAS then what you are reading above probably sounds like a works based salvation. But to us Catholics who do not believe in OSAS they are nothing of the kind. These are called sacraments and we believe they were established by Christ himself to increase us in God’s graces and to KEEP us from losing our salvation. Now I’ve had this discussion numerous times and what it boils down to is this, there is absolutely no difference whatsoever between believing that one can lose their salvation and believing in OSAS but that one can prove they were never saved to begin with. Please think on that for a while then we can come back to it if you wish. For a better understanding of the Catholic position on OSAS please read this.

Silvertusk wrote: Hi Byblos
Have to say that all you said above is absolutley true for Catholics - but as a protestant (baptist) I do not ascribe to it - and so my original statement stands (although all of course IMHO) - Purgatory implies to me that the work on the cross was not enough as there is still work to be done. Jesus brought all the sins of humanity onto him past present and future that those that beleive in him shall never die but have eternal life. "It is Finished" he said - and I believe that. Purgatory is an addition made by the Catholic Church and not scripture as far as protestants are concerned. We have had discussions about the differences between the denominations before and I think it is important to make it clear between Catholic and Protestant dogma that there are different views on this although Purgatory is certainly one such view.

I completely understand your perspective Silver and no one is implying that you ought to believe in purgatory or any other Catholic dogma. My aim is to dispel misconceptions, that’s all. I’d rather you reject purgatory knowing exactly what Catholics believe rather than rejecting it based on false assumptions.

Silvertusk wrote: For me personally (and the Anglicans are just as bad) it seems to be another layer of "tradition" added on by the religious institutions distancing us from God. But I better stop here as I can feel myself getting rilled up about it all and do not want to offend.

Silver, please don’t ever feel like you need to hold back but at the same time my wish is always to have a civilized discussion no matter how deeply we disagree. There is no reason to get riled up or to think you need to hold back for fear you might offend me. I knew exactly what I was in store for the day I signed up here and yet here I am still.

Silvertusk wrote:This whole section makes my blood go cold. It is virtually idol worship.

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p6.htm

See, there you go, don’t hold back now but let's stick to one subject at a time, shall we .

Yeah sorry about that......

To be honest with you Byblos - I do see Catholics as my fellow Christian brothers because at the end of the day is what we think about Jesus that matters. Although I have run into some Catholics that will not interact with us because our lack of worship of Mary - on the other hand I have met some Catholics who shine like Christ more than anyone I know. Go figure?

I guess I am of the notion that Jesus never meant it to be complicated for us to reach salvation which is why i like the baptist approach that only follow traditions that Jesus directly taught or approved - believers baptism, communion and marriage. There is no rite of passage one has to go to or conditions to be met to come to the table to partake of bread and wine. There are no complicated many layered traditions that you have to observe to come to worship or pray to God. I truely believe that Jesus made it simple for us - he even condensed 10 commandments into 2 so we can handle it better. . It is when you start adding on the limescale of tradition and legalism that the water no longer remains pure - to use a kettle metaphor. (Purgatory being one of those - to keep this on topic )

Just IMHO of course.

Silvertusk wrote:To be honest with you Byblos - I do see Catholics as my fellow Christian brothers because at the end of the day is what we think about Jesus that matters. Although I have run into some Catholics that will not interact with us because our lack of worship of Mary - on the other hand I have met some Catholics who shine like Christ more than anyone I know. Go figure?

I agree with everything you said except the part about Catholics worshiping Mary, those Catholics who believe that (and there are probably many) don't know the first thing about Mary or the communion of the saints. Sunday mass (and the liturgy) is the focal point of worship for Catholics and do you know who is at the center of that? The Eucharist, Christ himself (rightly or wrongly, that is not the point I'm trying to make). So in the most important part of Catholic worship Mary is not mentioned even once. If she is mentioned at all it is in the context of intercessory prayer, i.e. we ask her to pray for us much like we ask our family and parents to pray for us. That is the extend of the communion of the saints, intercessory prayer, nothing more and certainly no worship.

Silvertusk wrote:I guess I am of the notion that Jesus never meant it to be complicated for us to reach salvation which is why i like the baptist approach that only follow traditions that Jesus directly taught or approved - believers baptism, communion and marriage. There is no rite of passage one has to go to or conditions to be met to come to the table to partake of bread and wine. There are no complicated many layered traditions that you have to observe to come to worship or pray to God. I truely believe that Jesus made it simple for us - he even condensed 10 commandments into 2 so we can handle it better. . It is when you start adding on the limescale of tradition and legalism that the water no longer remains pure - to use a kettle metaphor. (Purgatory being one of those - to keep this on topic )

Just IMHO of course.

I understand.

From my perspective the whole issue comes down to interpretive authority. Did Christ leave his church scattered, disintegrated, each on his own to interpret scripture as they see fit, or did Christ establish an infallible, authoritative body, that is the pillar of truth guided by the Holy Spirit, that can not only make final pronouncements on the meaning of scripture (final interpretive authority) but was tasked with infallibly defining what scripture IS to begin with (compiling the canon). Without the Catholic Church there can be no scripture and without infallibility the Catholic Church could not have definitively known what books belong as scripture and which ones do not.