Evidence for God from Science

I have absolutely no idea what to say in regards to this topic. I've read the page on religious youth and the unlikeliness they will engage in risky behaviors here on the website, but I have a sense that to negate an opponent of child baptism and religious instruction, we require some heavy psychology. I keep reading about fallen-away Christians going on and on about their "Christian guilt" being the one thing that holds them back from "true happiness". Or, that in some extreme cases, child indoctrination is a form of abuse because it takes away their ability to have a "clean slate".

The problem I see with this is that even by removing religion, a child will not have a "Clean slate" for long. Atheist parents will have to teach them codes of morality and values from somewhere, and have to teach them reasoning behind it. They will indoctrinate their children in their own way. If there is nothing concrete to support these values, other than the simple phrase "it's just wrong", then those kids can throw away those ideas if they so please.

Thoughts?

Thoughts? Yes. Who is inducting whom? It is so interesting you would bring this up. This was a quote I was searching for earlier today, before I ever read your post.

"Education is thus a most powerful ally of humanism, and every American school is a school of humanism. What can a theistic Sunday school's meeting for an hour once a week and teaching only a fraction of the children do to stem the tide of the five-day program of humanistic teaching?" (Charles F. Potter, "Humanism: A New Religion," 1930)

If the world is simply natural and material process, then it is a moot point. Everyone is acting on their genetic programing. Any indoctrination is an arbitrary, meaningless response involving chemical and electrical brain activity. However, if there is objective truth, then indoctrination means everything.

Humanism is just stubborn moral faith. Humanists these days have been trying to get to the conclusion that objective moral values exist because of it, and they have only failed to prove that. Once you ask them to show some evidence of human moral significance if atheism was true, their argument goes absolutely nowhere from there.

I always beat the humanist when they use their human flourishing reasoning. Why is human flourishing any special then any other animal flourishing? Animals copulate with each other all the time with clear resistance from the female. If human flourishing is good for our species, then murder, rape, theft, etc are not objectively wrong.

You should see the backflips these humanists do when I talk to them. Its amazing the lengths they go to not be wrong. I have got a couple of them to come back around though, and they see the flaw.

jlay wrote:Thoughts? Yes. Who is inducting whom?

It is so interesting you would bring this up. This was a quote I was searching for earlier today, before I ever read your post.[/quote]

Very cool that I comment on it when you were searching! God works in mysterious ways, indeed

A Christian parent inducting their child. The objection came from the notion that children can't "reason" until a certain age and shouldn't be fed "nonsense" like religion. However, this person went onto say that if the child was not "indoctrinated" and then grew up and chose religion, then it would be no problem because they didn't have the early influence.

My head spins with this kind of stupidity.

domokunrox wrote:Humanism is just stubborn moral faith. Humanists these days have been trying to get to the conclusion that objective moral values exist because of it, and they have only failed to prove that. Once you ask them to show some evidence of human moral significance if atheism was true, their argument goes absolutely nowhere from there

Oh, heavens, I indeed sympathize with this experience. Is talking in circles a requirement for being an atheist?

I think the nature of the Christian faith is that indoctrination is contrary to the faith. Faith coerced is not faith at all. Training is not indoctrination. I think one of the failures of modern Christianity is it has moved from training up a child to indoctrination.

I had this conversation with my 4th graders yesterday. "Why is the Bible true?" I asked. "Because it's God's Word," or, "because it says so," they reply. Well, the it is God's words, and it is true. But the reply is circular. It isn't training, it's indoctrination. And I think this is why we see so many children fall away from the faith in their adult years. They didn't have a living faith, or a reason for the hope they had.

As the quote I posted earlier alludes to. There is an indoctrination, and it aint what the atheist wants to deal with. If the atheist wants to be totally consistent, then we should teach children that it's wrong to lie, steal or hurt others. (All things that children will do.) Otherwise you are forcing a worldview on them, which could be referred to as indoctrination.

Kind of off topic question, but do you believe the psychological definition of humanism is true(? (does it contradict the bible


Have to write a paper of humanism V. Behaviorism for psychology

Kind of off topic question, but do you believe the psychological definition of humanism is true(? (does it contradict the bible


Have to write a paper of humanism V. Behaviorism for psychology

A little update: I received an answer from one of the volunteers at WLC's website about the topic and I thought it would be wise to share. I found it to be very succinct.

"“Indoctrination” is simply teaching someone doctrines (ideas, principles, points of view) that one believes to be true. Everybody does this, perhaps most of all parents who must teach their children the truth about the world. Your husband seems to think that teaching your kids that there is no God is not indoctrination, but it most certainly is. The idea that “child indoctrination” is wrong is a smoke screen. The real issue is what beliefs about the world are true. That’s what you want to believe yourself and also teach to your children.

There are many excellent resources that demonstrate the bankruptcy of atheism and the harmony of Christian belief with logic, philosophy, science, and history. Here are some book recommendations along these lines:

1. I Don’t Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist by Norm Geisler and Frank Turek
2. The Case for a Creator by Lee Strobel
3. The Case for Christ by Lee Strobel
4. To Everyone An Answer: A Case for the Christian Worldview, edited by Francis J. Beckwith, William Lane Craig, and J.P. Moreland
5. On Guard: Defending Your Faith with Reason and Precision by William Lane Craig
6. Holman QuickSource Guide to Christian Apologetics by Doug Powell
7. Truth Matters: Life’s Five Most Important Questions by Tom Gender"