Evidence for God from Science

Today at church I heard something which atonished me and I couldn't wait to get on here and see what you all think! Today's sermon was about temptation. One of the church elders (we don't have a pastor) spoke about how David was tempted by the sight of Bathsheba and eventually seduced her and got her pregnant while her husband was away. (2 Samuel chapter 11) I kept reading onto chapter 12 and saw that God punished David by killing the child born to him and Bathsheba, but that was glossed over by the elder saying "And there were consequences for David for sinning..." Now, at the end of the service I asked the wife of the man who gave the sermon some questions which I think a lot of us have difficulty with. I told her I find it hard to understand why God seemed so judgemantal and angry in the Old Testament (punishing innocent children for the sins their parents had committed) and in the New Testsment he is the God of love. She told me God has always been the God of love but that when his chosen people openly defied him, he passed judgement on them. I admire and respect this woman but what she said next astonished me. She said that one of her babies was born with the cord wrapped around his neck and that was because there had been freemasons in the family in the past. I cannot believe that! I put my argument to her: Then what was the point of Christ dying for our sins if the sins of the fathers are STILL being visited on the sons and subsequent generations? She said it wasn't God passing judgement, it was "the way of the world." Then I said what about the blind man in John Chapter 9? The apostles asked Jesus why the man was born blind, was it because he has sinned or was it his parents? Jesus said "Neither this man nor his parents sinned, but this happened so that the works od God might be displayed in him." I took this to mean that unfortunate things sometimes happen to good people. Maybe it's genetics or unfortunate accidents. I don't believe, no I CAN'T believe that God still visits the sins of the father onto the sons or subsequent generations because that would rock my entire belief system. I believe Christ dying stopped that. Am I right?

I had to read what you wrote twice.

Sins do not pass down. You don't need to worry about that. Each soul works out their own salvation. Its completely illogical and ubjust for God to judge mankind on the sins of their ancestors. If your father was a murderer, does that make you one? No. For you did not commit that crime. If your father was a liar, does that make you one? No. You did not tell those lies.

Could you imagine what salvation would be like if it was like that? Imagine if sin travelled upward, too. Imagine if you have a child is commits rape unknowingly to you, and then God's judgement came.

Sure, you can confess to a crime, but that does not mean that because you confessed it, you did it. A guilty party is just that, guilty. An innocent party is just that, innocent.

That's very worrisome, I suggest you find a new church if they endorse that teaching.

She said that one of her babies was born with the cord wrapped around his neck and that was because there had been freemasons in the family in the past.

Are you sure you weren't talking to Pat Robertson?

I honestly don't know how anyone could come up with this rationale.

RickD wrote:

She said that one of her babies was born with the cord wrapped around his neck and that was because there had been freemasons in the family in the past.

Are you sure you weren't talking to Pat Robertson?

I honestly don't know how anyone could come up with this rationale.

That's made me laugh! I just think it's so sad that she believes that. I even came across a website which goes indepth about renouncing and asking forgiveness for "generational sins" like freemasonry, etc. I know we are always looking for the "Why" but was too much. I'd hate to hear her reasoning behind why my father is blind, why my mother had a stroke, why my husband has diabetes.....

mum1983 wrote:

RickD wrote:

She said that one of her babies was born with the cord wrapped around his neck and that was because there had been freemasons in the family in the past.

Are you sure you weren't talking to Pat Robertson?

I honestly don't know how anyone could come up with this rationale.

That's made me laugh! I just think it's so sad that she believes that. I even came across a website which goes indepth about renouncing and asking forgiveness for "generational sins" like freemasonry, etc. I know we are always looking for the "Why" but was too much. I'd hate to hear her reasoning behind why my father is blind, why my mother had a stroke, why my husband has diabetes.....

I know I made a joke about it, but seriously, she's a leader in a church?

Concerning the sins passing on down family line, and what actually means. Paul spoke of this in Romans 5:12. Also, think of it this way as well,

Think of the long term effects that excessive alcohol and drug use have on the human gene and you’ll get an idea. Think of the AIDS – a host of other things, as they are passed on. So there is a reality to the principle of things passing on down the family gene pool.

As for the woman’s comment’s, I do not think that has anything to do with what the bible says about this. As for King David, he made a comment that he would see his child after he died and stopped mourning (2 Samuel 12:23c). That speaks volumes.

As for the preachers sermon, he may well have taken things a bit out of context and as Jesus said, a Tree is Known by its Fruit can also apply to sermons as well.

Romans 5:9, 10, Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. NKJV

Does Roman's 5 quoted above line up with the preachers message? Test all things...
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B. W. wrote:Concerning the sins passing on down family line, and what actually means. Paul spoke of this in Romans 5:12. Also, think of it this way as well,

Think of the long term effects that excessive alcohol and drug use have on the human gene and you’ll get an idea. Think of the AIDS – a host of other things, as they are passed on. So there is a reality to the principle of things passing on down the family gene pool.

As for the woman’s comment’s, I do not think that has anything to do with what the bible says about this. As for King David, he made a comment that he would see his child after he died and stopped mourning (2 Samuel 12:23c). That speaks volumes.

As for the preachers sermon, he may well have taken things a bit out of context and as Jesus said, a Tree is Known by its Fruit can also apply to sermons as well.

Romans 5:9, 10, Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. NKJV

Does Roman's 5 quoted above line up with the preachers message? Test all things...
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I've only been attending the church for two months and so far we have not had anything but (in my opinion) uplifting sermons , but today it was about temptation and the consequences. Very important, but like I said, it brought me back to that eternal question...why do innocents (David's baby) have to suffer? Which led me to ask the leader's wife in private, what her opinions were. She claimed it was because his father had defied the Lord and she believed that still goes on today. I realise there are certain genetic diseases which are passed dpwn and bad lifestyle choices which can be passed down, alcoholism in families, etc. BUT, I can't believe any abnormality in children or newborns stems from some sin their great great grandfather might have committed in 1924....

I've only been attending the church for two months and so far we have not had anything but (in my opinion) uplifting sermons , but today it was about temptation and the consequences. Very important, but like I said, it brought me back to that eternal question...why do innocents (David's baby) have to suffer? Which led me to ask the leader's wife in private, what her opinions were. She claimed it was because his father had defied the Lord and she believed that still goes on today. I realise there are certain genetic diseases which are passed dpwn and bad lifestyle choices which can be passed down, alcoholism in families, etc. BUT, I can't believe any abnormality in children or newborns stems from some sin their great great grandfather might have committed in 1924....

Let me tell you, in real backward countries, rural areas, where people still are uneducated and rely greatly on superstition and magic, and that kind of stuff, I have personally seen that the people who are involved in worshiping the dead, staying on burial grounds for , shrines, and such places, more than often have at least one abnormal baby in their families. I am not sure what are the actual reasons, but I have seen this too often to note that it may not be coincidence. I believe that the people who still live a cursed life and take part in unholy rituals are bound to have some curses attached. Not by God of course but still. And some times that involves the sins of fathers, of course we are not talking about real believers here, as they would not do such a thing.

The woman in your church is just misinformed and she has built her faith on that wrong piece of information. I am stunned sometimes by how Christians relate their life to non-biblical standards and have stubborn faith to defend it too.

neo-x wrote:

Let me tell you, in real backward countries, rural areas, where people still are uneducated and rely greatly on superstition and magic, and that kind of stuff, I have personally seen that the people who are involved in worshiping the dead, staying on burial grounds for , shrines, and such places, more than often have at least one abnormal baby in their families. I am not sure what are the actual reasons, but I have seen this too often to note that it may not be coincidence. I believe that the people who still live a cursed life and take part in unholy rituals are bound to have some curses attached. Not by God of course but still. And some times that involves the sins of fathers, of course we are not talking about real believers here, as they would not do such a thing.

The woman in your church is just misinformed and she has built her faith on that wrong piece of information. I am stunned sometimes by how Christians relate their life to non-biblical standards and have stubborn faith to defend it too.

The state of the world is shocking in some areas. 2,000 years after Christ's death and not much had changed in a HUGE number of places.

Yes, I was stunned when she told me her belief. I thought "This can't be true! She must be joking!" because she is such a kind, caring, educated woman. It's sad.

One thing that is critical to understand about the life of David is that He was the line that God had ordained to deliver the Messiah through. Don't mess with that. David found out the hard way.

What the Lady said next, was sad. Unfortunate that she beleives this way. Pray that God will use you in that situation. In fact your conversation may have been a set up job orchestrated by God. Maybe what you said got her thinking. The Lord disciplines those He loves.