Evidence for God from Science

Hey guys, this is something I've seen bart mention in the past, and back a long time ago when I was doubting and questioning my salvation, it was hard for me to put a finger on exactly what was causing me to doubt but when Bart mentioned this, the light bulb went off like crazy!

Basically it's either the conscious or even subconscious act that pastors (whether it be local church pastors to big named tv pastors) who believe (or I guess) they believe the biblical formula for salvation (faith in Christ alone for forgiveness of sins and not by works), but either due to their desperation to see morality in America turn around or to get members and or viewers to send in more money will in one way or another say things or even preach a whole sermon that almost seems to claim that salvation IS through works.

But again I want to emphasize that this is something that they could be doing and not even realizing it, but it was something that I as a young believer noticed and it eventually made me very confused as to how we are saved and how we could have assurance of our salvation.

But anyway, I want to commend Bart for coming up with the term "bait and switch gospel" to the phenomenon that I have witnessed in many churches over the years. And I was also wondering Bart if you have ever talked with pastors that you have seen using this conscious or even subconscious tactic?

Thanks for your time.

I guess it is that although works is not nessesary, faith without works is dead faith.

DRDS wrote:Hey guys, this is something I've seen bart mention in the past, and back a long time ago when I was doubting and questioning my salvation, it was hard for me to put a finger on exactly what was causing me to doubt but when Bart mentioned this, the light bulb went off like crazy!

Basically it's either the conscious or even subconscious act that pastors (whether it be local church pastors to big named tv pastors) who believe (or I guess) they believe the biblical formula for salvation (faith in Christ alone for forgiveness of sins and not by works), but either due to their desperation to see morality in America turn around or to get members and or viewers to send in more money will in one way or another say things or even preach a whole sermon that almost seems to claim that salvation IS through works.

But again I want to emphasize that this is something that they could be doing and not even realizing it, but it was something that I as a young believer noticed and it eventually made me very confused as to how we are saved and how we could have assurance of our salvation.

But anyway, I want to commend Bart for coming up with the term "bait and switch gospel" to the phenomenon that I have witnessed in many churches over the years. And I was also wondering Bart if you have ever talked with pastors that you have seen using this conscious or even subconscious tactic?

Thanks for your time.

I've never heard of bait and switch gospel. What part makes it a bait and switch? I know when I've gone to buy a car, the "bait and switch" is used sometimes. Say, I call about a certain car advertised at a good price(bait), then when I get there, that car is gone, but they have a similar car for more money(switch). How does that work in the bait and switch gospel?

I heard that christianity is not an end to suffering, but the beginning of a new suffering. The suffering of this world to the suffering of beautiful forgiveness. Being meticulous about legalities in religion has proved to be faulty. This is not the works of Christianity. But instead, the works is different from other religions because it is based off of faith and not meaningless rituals. This does not mean that rituals should be avoided, though. They do bring people together.

What is the works of Christianity, exactly?
I suppose love your God with all your strength, heart, mind, and soul; love your neighbor as yourself; read the bible. But this being impossible to uphold, is not meant to be held to perfection; but instead as hard as you can possibly do with a heart of humility. I heard that a relationship with Jesus also helps acheive this goal as well.

I believe I have heard another expression for this.

The blab it and grab it.

If our acceptance from God was on works, then there wouldn't be a point to accepting Christianity.

I can imagine GOD asking why they should get into heaven and someone citing their works are likely to be disappointed. I can't decide for God, but my immediate reaction to salvation by works alone is not a good one.

I don't know for sure, but this is what it seems like to me:

Salvation is based off of faith and not works.
If you don't see purpose in the works your faith is going to be dead or at great risk.
The works is part of faith.
The works that Jesus sets forth are what is righteous, and not meaningless.

DRDS wrote:Hey guys, this is something I've seen bart mention in the past, and back a long time ago when I was doubting and questioning my salvation, it was hard for me to put a finger on exactly what was causing me to doubt but when Bart mentioned this, the light bulb went off like crazy!

Basically it's either the conscious or even subconscious act that pastors (whether it be local church pastors to big named tv pastors) who believe (or I guess) they believe the biblical formula for salvation (faith in Christ alone for forgiveness of sins and not by works), but either due to their desperation to see morality in America turn around or to get members and or viewers to send in more money will in one way or another say things or even preach a whole sermon that almost seems to claim that salvation IS through works.

But again I want to emphasize that this is something that they could be doing and not even realizing it, but it was something that I as a young believer noticed and it eventually made me very confused as to how we are saved and how we could have assurance of our salvation.

But anyway, I want to commend Bart for coming up with the term "bait and switch gospel" to the phenomenon that I have witnessed in many churches over the years. And I was also wondering Bart if you have ever talked with pastors that you have seen using this conscious or even subconscious tactic?

Thanks for your time.

What is works?
Most churches call works egtting more bums on seats and ignore helping the poor

DRDS wrote:Hey guys, this is something I've seen bart mention in the past, and back a long time ago when I was doubting and questioning my salvation, it was hard for me to put a finger on exactly what was causing me to doubt but when Bart mentioned this, the light bulb went off like crazy!

Basically it's either the conscious or even subconscious act that pastors (whether it be local church pastors to big named tv pastors) who believe (or I guess) they believe the biblical formula for salvation (faith in Christ alone for forgiveness of sins and not by works), but either due to their desperation to see morality in America turn around or to get members and or viewers to send in more money will in one way or another say things or even preach a whole sermon that almost seems to claim that salvation IS through works.

But again I want to emphasize that this is something that they could be doing and not even realizing it, but it was something that I as a young believer noticed and it eventually made me very confused as to how we are saved and how we could have assurance of our salvation.

But anyway, I want to commend Bart for coming up with the term "bait and switch gospel" to the phenomenon that I have witnessed in many churches over the years. And I was also wondering Bart if you have ever talked with pastors that you have seen using this conscious or even subconscious tactic?

Thanks for your time.

I've done better than talk to pastors ... I was a pastor and I can see times in my past when in that role I employed this kind of approach. I don't think I was doing it intentionally however, so much as I was mistaken and out of balance in my own approach and understanding. When you preach a grace gospel but you have needs as a pastor in a church to meet budget and get things done, it's a very easy thing to return to what works in motivating, shaming or guilting people to do the things you want. Fear, guilt and shame are still very effective motivators, even if they are not an accurate portrayal of how God wants for us to live and walk with him.

This is just my POV-

I think the term “bait and switch tactics” may simply mean modifying the gospel message, by adding and/or taking away from the Holy Scriptures, or even watering them down for reasons of dressing it up so to speak, to appeal to the worldly minded.

However, I do like having that great breakfast on Sunday morn known as fellow-shipping time, and then a Great Upbeat Band to boot and then a movie at my local church.

However, the only problem with that is I learned absolutely nothing from a sermon so then by 3:00 pm I must go home and watch Christian Television..

Now I understand why we have the need for Christian TV, among other reasons of course.

However, I believe that any pressure to do such works, is very time consuming and must be seen for what it really is: and that being a worldly minded, carnal and devilish {oops, did I say devilish assault??} upon the truth of God‘s Word..When I don't get God's Word into my spirit on Sunday Morning I have missed the whole reason for assembly.

Anyways, No matter where such pressure comes from, it must not be tolerated but must be fiercely resisted and dealt with by anybody who would remain faithful to Father God and be an instrument of His power in the lives of men and women.

The truth is: I am fed up with half truths, religious people, and fence-sitters-
I have no use for the white-washers or the Counterfeiters.
Either give me the absolute truth or give me nothing.
Religious traditional works just have a way of setting people back and they are a waste of time.

Tiffany Dawn wrote:The truth is: I am fed up with half truths, religious people, and fence-sitters-
I have no use for the white-washers or the Counterfeiters.
Either give me the absolute truth or give me nothing.
Religious traditional works just have a way of setting people back and they are a waste of time.

I don't know you but I like you already. Stick around.

FL