Evidence for God from Science

Hello. I would like to bring to your attention the following petition I came across. I find the petition remarkable because home demolition seems devastating, the petition is endorsed by Christian groups, and a few signers mentioned demolition of Christian homes:

• Petition to End House Demolitions Now!
  
  To President Obama, Secretary Clinton, Special Envoy Mitchell:
  
  We urge you to use the power of your offices to end the demolition of Palestinian homes in the Israeli Occupied Territories.
  
  Your administration has expressed opposition to Israeli settlement expansion. Your statements had given supporters of a peaceful and just solution some hope. The importance of ending Israel’s destructive policy is reflected in the Road Map initiative, led by the US, which calls for the cessation of house demolitions in Phase One.
  
  Since 1967, the Israeli government has demolished over 24,000 Palestinian homes -- which families have built on their own land inside the Occupied Territories -- in order to:
  
  * Make room for Israeli settlements
  * Create Israeli-only “by-pass” roads for Israeli settlers to drive to and from their new homes in the Territories
  * Build the Separation Wall deep into the West Bank, effectively annexing large settlement blocs situated on Palestinian land
  
  The UN Office for Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs reports Israel denies 94% of all Palestinian applications for building permits from Palestinian families and then demolishes Palestinian homes for the failure to have a permit that they cannot obtain. B'tselem notes that Palestinians in East Jerusalem face the same reality. The Israeli Ministry of Defense acknowledged in 2005 that these home demolitions serve no security purpose.
  
  Israel justifies these demolitions on the grounds that Palestinians often build on their own land without Israeli-approved “permits.” However, as the UN Office for Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs reports, Israel denies 94% of all Palestinian applications for building permits from Palestinian families in the Occupied Territories, and then demolishes Palestinian homes for the failure to have a permit that they cannot obtain. Israeli Human Rights groups note that Palestinians in East Jerusalem face the same reality. The Israeli Ministry of Defense acknowledged in 2005 that these home demolitions serve no security purpose and ended its policy of punitive demolitions at that time.
  
  Israel’s house demolition policy is intimately linked to the expansion of Israeli settlements in Occupied East Jerusalem and the West Bank. This policy is illegal under international law, including the Fourth Geneva Convention and the Hague Convention of 1907.
  
  Finally, Israel’s home demolition policy... creates immense suffering for Palestinian families and communities, rendering several generations of a family homeless. To add insult to injury, Palestinian families are often charged with the cost of demolition. This policy also fails to serve either Israeli or US interests. We call upon you... to condemn this policy and forcefully call for the immediate cessation of the Israeli government’s demolition of Palestinian homes.
  
  Endorsers include:
  # Christian Peacemakers Team - Palestine (CPT)
  # Friends of Sabeel, the Voice of Palestinian Christians - North America
  # Interfaith Peace Builders (IFPB)
  # Middle East Children's Alliance (MECA)
  # Holy Land Peace Foundation
  # The Middle East Study Group of the Diocese of Pennsylvania
  # Bathurst United Church
  # Sabeel Iowa
  # Sabeel South Carolina
  # Episcopal Peace Fellowship, Seattle
  # Episcopal Peace Fellowship – Southwest Washington
  # Christians for Peace and Justice in the Middle East
  # In His Steps
  # Pax Christi Brownsville
  # U.S. Dominicans Palestine Coordinating Committee
  # Episcopal Peace Fellowship of Asheville, NC
  # Interfaith Community for Palestinian Rights
  # Ecumenical Centre for Service and Popular Education, Brazil
  
  # Private Name
  Three people I know personally, all Palestinian Christians, have lost their homes. One family was given 15 minutes to collect their belongings, was told to leave the area and never return. Another family was forced to watch as their home was destroyed and the third family was sent out of town and returned to find their house and all of their possessions gone.
  
  # Chris Hartbarger
  Mister President, You are my brother in Christ. You and I and all palestinians as well as all the citizens of this planet share the same last name, "child of God". It is past time for you and I to do right by our neighbors,our brothers and sisters.
  
  # Janet Archer
  When my husband and I attended a two day Sabeel Conference here in KC we learned about the plight of Palestinian Christians and Palestinian Arabs in the occupied territories from those who have lived there and continue to bring God among us, as Jesus did, dwelling with the poor, the widow, the alien. We, in the US do not get the full story most of the time, and that's what those who control the power and occupy by military might want (Rome all over again like in Jesus time).

Rakovsky wrote:Hello. I would like to bring to your attention the following petition I came across. I find the petition remarkable because home demolition seems devastating, the petition is endorsed by Christian groups, and a few signers mentioned demolition of Christian homes:

I can't see how any christian would support this measure. Don't forget that Jewish homes also get demolished by the IDF also. This recently happened in the gaza.

Official IDF explanations for house demolitions include use as a counter-insurgency security measure to impede or halt militant operations, as a regulatory measure to enforce building codes and regulations, and as a deterrent against terrorism in the occupied territories.

House demolition is typically justified by the IDF on the basis of:

1. Deterrence, achieved by harming the relatives of those who carry out, or are suspected of involvement in carrying out, attacks
2. Counter-terrorism, by destroying militant facilities such as bombs labs, headquarters, and offices
3. Forcing out an individual barricaded inside a house, which may be rigged with explosives, without risking soldiers' lives
4. Self-defence, by destroying possible hideouts and rocket propelled grenade/gun posts
5. Combat engineering, clearing a path for tanks and heavy armoured personnel carriers

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_demo ... n_conflict

Also in many cases Arabs sell their homes to Jewish families in order to make room for newer homes. They were NOT forced to do it.. And these Jews paid WELL above the paid price..

Since 1967, the Israeli government has demolished over 24,000 Palestinian homes -- which families have built on their own land inside the Occupied Territories -- in order to:

* Make room for Israeli settlements
* Create Israeli-only “by-pass” roads for Israeli settlers to drive to and from their new homes in the Territories
* Build the Separation Wall deep into the West Bank, effectively annexing large settlement blocs situated on Palestinian land

Occupied territories? Again this is baloney for the reason stated above. On top of that, Arabs are welcomed to join Israel any time. However, their rights are FORFEITED when they start using their homes for terrorist activities. We would do exactly the same thing here too in America. In fact I would say that the IDF has been too generous to the Arabs in many many situations...

Also take a look at the archeological evidence for Israel sometime... Thousands of Hebrew artifacts all over the west bank and gaza. What more proof do they need who the true occupiers are?

The UN Office for Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs reports Israel denies 94% of all Palestinian applications for building permits from Palestinian families and then demolishes Palestinian homes for the failure to have a permit that they cannot obtain. B'tselem notes that Palestinians in East Jerusalem face the same reality. The Israeli Ministry of Defense acknowledged in 2005 that these home demolitions serve no security purpose.

Israel justifies these demolitions on the grounds that Palestinians often build on their own land without Israeli-approved “permits.” However, as the UN Office for Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs reports, Israel denies 94% of all Palestinian applications for building permits from Palestinian families in the Occupied Territories, and then demolishes Palestinian homes for the failure to have a permit that they cannot obtain. Israeli Human Rights groups note that Palestinians in East Jerusalem face the same reality. The Israeli Ministry of Defense acknowledged in 2005 that these home demolitions serve no security purpose and ended its policy of punitive demolitions at that time.

Go to Israel sometime and see the conditions of these homes... Often times these places are rat infested areas with no roofs. I wouldn't even let my dog live there.

Israel’s house demolition policy is intimately linked to the expansion of Israeli settlements in Occupied East Jerusalem and the West Bank. This policy is illegal under international law, including the Fourth Geneva Convention and the Hague Convention of 1907.

Finally, Israel’s home demolition policy... creates immense suffering for Palestinian families and communities, rendering several generations of a family homeless. To add insult to injury, Palestinian families are often charged with the cost of demolition. This policy also fails to serve either Israeli or US interests. We call upon you... to condemn this policy and forcefully call for the immediate cessation of the Israeli government’s demolition of Palestinian homes.

If you fight against the establishment or use your house as a missile base you will LOOSE your rights.... It's very very simple to understand.

Same policies would happen here in America too..

Endorsers include:
# Christian Peacemakers Team - Palestine (CPT)
# Friends of Sabeel, the Voice of Palestinian Christians - North America
# Interfaith Peace Builders (IFPB)
# Middle East Children's Alliance (MECA)
# Holy Land Peace Foundation
# The Middle East Study Group of the Diocese of Pennsylvania
# Bathurst United Church
# Sabeel Iowa
# Sabeel South Carolina
# Episcopal Peace Fellowship, Seattle
# Episcopal Peace Fellowship – Southwest Washington
# Christians for Peace and Justice in the Middle East
# In His Steps
# Pax Christi Brownsville
# U.S. Dominicans Palestine Coordinating Committee
# Episcopal Peace Fellowship of Asheville, NC
# Interfaith Community for Palestinian Rights
# Ecumenical Centre for Service and Popular Education, Brazil

If these groups choose to fight against God that is their own choice... Technically Jews and Christians are BROTHERS. Jews are God's CHOSEN people.. We support Israel at all costs...

Thanks for the list however.. I will do my part to boycott these groups..

# Private Name
Three people I know personally, all Palestinian Christians, have lost their homes. One family was given 15 minutes to collect their belongings, was told to leave the area and never return. Another family was forced to watch as their home was destroyed and the third family was sent out of town and returned to find their house and all of their possessions gone.

# Chris Hartbarger
Mister President, You are my brother in Christ. You and I and all palestinians as well as all the citizens of this planet share the same last name, "child of God". It is past time for you and I to do right by our neighbors,our brothers and sisters.

# Janet Archer
When my husband and I attended a two day Sabeel Conference here in KC we learned about the plight of Palestinian Christians and Palestinian Arabs in the occupied territories from those who have lived there and continue to bring God among us, as Jesus did, dwelling with the poor, the widow, the alien. We, in the US do not get the full story most of the time, and that's what those who control the power and occupy by military might want (Rome all over again like in Jesus time).[/list]

Well too bad for these "so called" Christians.... If I had a home there that was demolished by the IDF I would be happy to give it up. In fact it would be an honor for me to give up my home for the cause of Israel. God defined the borders of Israel in Genesis 15:18-21 which is still in full effect today.

This type of thing is based on the liberal's Moral Equivalency Argument whose purpse is to make the oppostion live to its own standards. As Gman pointed out, one, it is lopsided and does not tell the whole story of truth, and two, it does not address the Islamist main point which is the entire genocide of the Jewish people. What is correct – genocide or live and live policy?

In the last days seducers, blasphemers, and apostates will wax worse and worse...
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B. W. wrote:This type of thing is based on the liberal's Moral Equivalency Argument whose purpse is to make the oppostion live to its own standards. As Gman pointed out, one, it is lopsided and does not tell the whole story of truth, and two, it does not address the Islamist main point which is the entire genocide of the Jewish people. What is correct – genocide or live and live policy?

In the last days seducers, blasphemers, and apostates will wax worse and worse...
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Exactly B.W.. Many forget of the genocide that happened against the Jews who lost their homes in the Arab countries surrounding Israel at the time of the war.. Where is their justice?? How will they be rein-compensated for their loses??

Dear Gman,

Hello! I try to approach social problems from the standpoints of equality, understanding, and care for people's human rights. I also sympathize with both Jewish people and Palestinians. It made a strong impression on me when I heard a presentation by Christian volunteers in the Holy Land that showed the hard conditions everyday Palestinians live under, where their water and land are strongly restricted, there are day-ling curfews where people who go outside their homes are sniped, get their homes bulldozed, and have to wait for hours at checkpoints between each village. What was particularly remarkable to me was that Christians were treated the same way.

I think that the treatment of Palestinians is important, because among them are the descendants of the first Jewish Christians, it seems like some of the treatment is very harmful, and to a large extent we are responsible for supporting it politically and financially.

Yes, in general, I think it's sad when anyone's home gets demolished, as you say:

Gman wrote:Don't forget that Jewish homes also get demolished by the IDF also. This recently happened in the gaza.

In Gaza, that the IDF decided that they were going to hand the sector over to the Palestinian authority. I think that it would have been better if the IDF had given the Israelis who settle there the option to stay and live under the P.A., rather than removing them and demolishing their homes.
Likewise, in the West Bank, I suppose there is some territory the IDF has as a kind of no-man's land, or intends for the P.A., so it removes Israelis who settle there. And I think that if the IDF wants to give the territory to the P.A., they should let the settlers stay and live under P.A. control if they want.
The exception, it seems to me, would be if those Israelis settled on land stolen from Palestinians, in which case naturally it should be returned to the Palestinians.

You pointed out that:

Official IDF explanations for house demolitions include use... as a regulatory measure to enforce building codes and regulations,

The petition claims that in 2000-2004, "25 percent were destroyed for the lack of building permits... Three-hundred and twenty-five homes, over half (184) of them in Jerusalem, were demolished in the West Bank due to the lack of building permits between the years 2004 and mid-2007, according to B’Tselem." (http://enddemolitionsnow.org/demolitions/reasons)
This seems troubling to me, because the petition says tha 94% of all Palestinian families' applications for building permits are denied.

The best reasons sounded to me like:

House demolition is typically justified by the IDF on the basis of:
2. Counter-terrorism, by destroying militant facilities such as bombs labs, headquarters, and offices
3. Forcing out an individual barricaded inside a house, which may be rigged with explosives, without risking soldiers' lives

Naturally, if fighting is coming from a structure, the army could attack it.

However, a justification that I dislike is collective punishment:

Official IDF explanations for house demolitions include... and as a deterrent against terrorism in the occupied territories.
House demolition is typically justified by the IDF on the basis of:
1. Deterrence, achieved by harming the relatives of those who carry out, or are suspected of involvement in carrying out, attacks

To try to put it in perspective from our own past, I have heard of times when someone from an Indian village attacked pioneers or colonial villagers, and in response our soldiers destroyed the village. In my opinion, this kind of punishment is harsh. It reminds me of someone punched my brother and then in response I would hurt the person's sister. Or if we were to punish criminals' families in America. Rather than deterring terrorism, it seems to me that this would actually make the terrorists even more spiteful, and probably make their families hostile too.
The petition site claims about this kind of demolition occures in 15% of cases.

I don't understand the most common kind of demolition reason, however:

Sixty percent were demolished in ‘clearing operations’ (i.e. mass demolitions) (http://enddemolitionsnow.org/demolitions/reasons)

My guess is that this has to do with the Separation Wall and/or as you mentioned:

5. Combat engineering, clearing a path for tanks and heavy armoured personnel carriers

But still, thousands of homes seems like alot to me, and I think they should've built the wall along the edge of the West Bank's borders, rather than deep inside it.

You were right that:

Also in many cases Arabs sell their homes to Jewish families in order to make room for newer homes. They were NOT forced to do it.. And these Jews paid WELL above the paid price..

This seems like alot better way to acquire land than just forcing people out, and it seems hard to think how normal purchases could be bad. If a good family was poor and had to sell their house, then I think the problem wouldn't be the housesale, but the difficult living conditions. A family like that would then be hurt by the usual rejection of applications to build new homes.

I have also heard claims that almost 100 years ago the immigrants from Europe bought swathes of land from absentee landowners and removed the inhabitants.

By the way, I am glad to discuss the problems with you. You obviously know alot. Also, I see that you are a Messianic Christian, which is neat, because I also like the heritage of the first Jewish Christians.

Dear Gman,

I would like to ask another question: There's alot I would like to talk about, but perhaps I shouldn't write it all at once. If you or someone brings up alot of important issues, what have you found to be the best way to respond?

You asked:

Occupied territories? Also take a look at the archeological evidence for Israel sometime... Thousands of Hebrew artifacts all over the west bank and gaza. What more proof do they need who the true occupiers are?

Well, to answer in a plain manner, the West Bank and Gaza are commonly called the "Occupied territories" because they are under a Military Administration.
You make a good point that there are thousands of Hebrew artifacts in the Territories, showing that the land is part of ancient Israel. However, if the US army put several American towns under direct military occupation, the region could still be named something like "occupied towns" or "Occupied territory."

On the other hand, a common misconception is that Palestinians are only the descendants of medieval Arab invaders. However, archeology research shows that many Palestinians, particularly Palestinian Christians, are descended from the ancient Israelites. Like ancient Jews who learned the Assyrians' Aramaic language, the Jewish and Christian inhabitants of the Holy Land learned to speak the Arabic of the medieval invaders, and many were converted to Islam.

According to the "God Report":

Jews, Palestinians Have Close Genetic Ties, Say Researchers



Ariella Oppenheim Ph.D., a researcher at Hebrew University and the Hadassah Medical School labs, has published the result of DNA studies...
Oppenheim found the Ashkenazi Jews from Europe are genetically closer to the Palestinians than Middle East Jews. Oppenheim also isolated and traced the chromosome for the “priestly” Cohen line. “We find that Arabs also carry this chromosome,” she noted in a documentary film, which claims that some Palestinians are also Cohens, genetically.

The Palestinian city of Yatta, located south of Hebron in the West Bank, has a population of 50,000 to 60,000 people. The Israeli documentary states that 90 percent of the town has Jewish roots. Furthermore, many of them practice ancient customs that are very Jewish. “In some of the dry and dusty Palestinian and Bedouin villages, they still circumcise their boys after the seventh day,” writes Mark Ellis on the website “Godreports.” Hidden away in some Palestinian homes are Jewish mezuzahs and tefillin. Some older residents can recall lighting candles on the Sabbath. “Many of the Palestinians know it, but it’s not politically correct to acknowledge this publicly among Muslims,” says Steve Hagerman, founder of Turkish World Outreach.

Documentary filmmaker Nissim Mossek quotes Rabbi Dov Stein who claims, “It becomes clear that a significant part of the Arabs in the land of Israel are actually descendants of Jews who were forced to convert to Islam over the centuries. There are studies which indicate that 85% of this group is of Jewish origin. As Israelis and Palestinians prepare to battle one another over the issue of statehood in the United Nations, it may be a radical notion to inform each party that the one they consider their worst enemy is actually their brother – far removed by the tides of history.

(from the reposted report:
//blog.godreports.com/2011/09/many-surprised-by-genetic-and-cultural-links-between-palestinians-and-jews
and:
//blog.beliefnet.com/news/2011/09/jews-palestinians-have-close-genetic-ties-say-researchers.php#ixzz1befDzqoy )

I am confused about this:

Gman wrote:

Rakovsky wrote:Since 1967, the Israeli government has demolished over 24,000 Palestinian homes -- which families have built on their own land inside the Occupied Territories -- in order to:
* Make room for Israeli settlements
* Create Israeli-only “by-pass” roads for Israeli settlers to drive to and from their new homes in the Territories
* Build the Separation Wall deep into the West Bank, effectively annexing large settlement blocs situated on Palestinian land

Again this is baloney for the reason stated above... their rights are FORFEITED when they start using their homes for terrorist activities.

It seems like you are saying that it's baloney that the houses were demolished for the Separation Wall, for exclusive roads, and for settlements, because houses are actually demolished as (1) collective punishment (15%), (2) a military assault on enemy installations, (3)after buying their homes [I assume this wouldn't be counted in the official statistics as "demolishing a Palestinian home"], (4) for lacking a permit (25%)

Well, wouldn't the 60% of the time that homes were demolished as "clearing operations" include houses demolished to make way for the wall?
And doesn't it make sense that officials would be more likely to deny pemits and demolish houses in terrain that was intended for the Wall, settlements, and roads (reason #4)?
After all, the settlements, roads, and Wall take up alot of land, and it seems like Palestinians wouldn't all simply have agreed to sell their homes for high prices.

If you look at the map of the area "captured" by the Separation Wall, you may notice that it focuses on large areas around the major cities of Jerusalem, Bethlehem, and Ramallah, where I assume many people would naturally live:
//media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lr8oefi1Cs1qjd0x5.jpg

Rakovsky wrote:Dear Gman,

Hello! I try to approach social problems from the standpoints of equality, understanding, and care for people's human rights. I also sympathize with both Jewish people and Palestinians. It made a strong impression on me when I heard a presentation by Christian volunteers in the Holy Land that showed the hard conditions everyday Palestinians live under, where their water and land are strongly restricted, there are day-ling curfews where people who go outside their homes are sniped, get their homes bulldozed, and have to wait for hours at checkpoints between each village. What was particularly remarkable to me was that Christians were treated the same way.

Well that's too bad for those people... But in order to care for people's rights it begins with peace.. If these Christians were harboring terrorists, then they HAVE to be dismantled too. Period..

Rakovsky wrote:I think that the treatment of Palestinians is important, because among them are the descendants of the first Jewish Christians, it seems like some of the treatment is very harmful, and to a large extent we are responsible for supporting it politically and financially.

No one is against Christian Arabs or Muslim Arabs.. They both have rights... However, if they choose to use weapons or violence against the Jewish state, they have to be destroyed in order to create peace for all those who dwell there. All people whether they are Arab, Jewish, Christian, etc.. All peaceful people living there need to be protected.

Rakovsky wrote:In Gaza, that the IDF decided that they were going to hand the sector over to the Palestinian authority. I think that it would have been better if the IDF had given the Israelis who settle there the option to stay and live under the P.A., rather than removing them and demolishing their homes.

Yes but the Arabs didn't want the Jews there in Gaza. This was all part of the Oslo Accords. And when the Jews gave up the land the Jews paid a heavy price for it because the land was used to launch missiles into the Jewish state.

Rakovsky wrote:Likewise, in the West Bank, I suppose there is some territory the IDF has as a kind of no-man's land, or intends for the P.A., so it removes Israelis who settle there. And I think that if the IDF wants to give the territory to the P.A., they should let the settlers stay and live under P.A. control if they want.
The exception, it seems to me, would be if those Israelis settled on land stolen from Palestinians, in which case naturally it should be returned to the Palestinians.

The Israelis cannot give land back to these Arabs because the moderate Arabs CANNOT control the extremist Arabs who live among them. The risk is too great.. A prime example of that was what happened in Gaza.

Rakovsky wrote:You pointed out that:

Official IDF explanations for house demolitions include use... as a regulatory measure to enforce building codes and regulations,

The petition claims that in 2000-2004, "25 percent were destroyed for the lack of building permits... Three-hundred and twenty-five homes, over half (184) of them in Jerusalem, were demolished in the West Bank due to the lack of building permits between the years 2004 and mid-2007, according to B’Tselem." (http://enddemolitionsnow.org/demolitions/reasons)
This seems troubling to me, because the petition says tha 94% of all Palestinian families' applications for building permits are denied.

The same thing would happen here in the U.S. too if they weren't up to code. Also if these areas were used to harbor terrorist then they have to deny building permits.. Again if you are using terror to terrorize other people you forfeit your rights automatically.

Rakovsky wrote:To try to put it in perspective from our own past, I have heard of times when someone from an Indian village attacked pioneers or colonial villagers, and in response our soldiers destroyed the village. In my opinion, this kind of punishment is harsh. It reminds me of someone punched my brother and then in response I would hurt the person's sister. Or if we were to punish criminals' families in America. Rather than deterring terrorism, it seems to me that this would actually make the terrorists even more spiteful, and probably make their families hostile too.
The petition site claims about this kind of demolition occures in 15% of cases.

Yes but you also have to understand that sometime excessive force is needed in order to protect the innocent civilians there.. I'm not saying that everything the Israelis do is golden, but I also understand the great lengths they have to do to protect the innocent Arabs, Chrisitans, or Jews. When the Israelis were too soft on these terrorists in the past they paid a heavy price for it..

Rakovsky wrote:My guess is that this has to do with the Separation Wall and/or as you mentioned:

The wall was created to protect all innocent civilians who live in Israel. And since it was created, many bombings have stopped.

Rakovsky wrote:This seems like alot better way to acquire land than just forcing people out, and it seems hard to think how normal purchases could be bad. If a good family was poor and had to sell their house, then I think the problem wouldn't be the housesale, but the difficult living conditions. A family like that would then be hurt by the usual rejection of applications to build new homes.

The Israelis don't force anyone out unless they find that they are hostile.. There is no magical answer to it...

Rakovsky wrote:I have also heard claims that almost 100 years ago the immigrants from Europe bought swathes of land from absentee landowners and removed the inhabitants.

Not sure what you mean here...

Rakovsky wrote: Well, to answer in a plain manner, the West Bank and Gaza are commonly called the "Occupied territories" because they are under a Military Administration.
You make a good point that there are thousands of Hebrew artifacts in the Territories, showing that the land is part of ancient Israel. However, if the US army put several American towns under direct military occupation, the region could still be named something like "occupied towns" or "Occupied territory."

It's good that these areas are under a military administration. Why? Becuase those areas could be used to send missiles into innocent people's houses... Even if you want to say that they are occupied.. Which they truly aren't for it is God almighty who gave these lands to the Jews... If they choose to fight against God, I feel sorry for them.

Rakovsky wrote:On the other hand, a common misconception is that Palestinians are only the descendants of medieval Arab invaders. However, archeology research shows that many Palestinians, particularly Palestinian Christians, are descended from the ancient Israelites. Like ancient Jews who learned the Assyrians' Aramaic language, the Jewish and Christian inhabitants of the Holy Land learned to speak the Arabic of the medieval invaders, and many were converted to Islam.

The Arab Christian populations are so small that they are practically insignificant. Only about 9 percent of the Israeli population.. And the ones that I've seen were happy to live there.. Also approximately 70% reside in the northern Israel, in Jish, Eilabun, Kafr Yasif, Kafr Kanna, I'billin, Shefa-'Amr

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citiz ... Christians

Also, even if you were to say that they are Israeli that's fine.. No one is saying they can't live there. But if they harbor terrorist, then they must leave...

According to the "God Report":

Fine by me... Genetics or no genetics, if you support terrorism, you're out... It doesn't matter what your genetic code is.. If they support Islam however, then technically they give up their Jewish rights. They forfeited their rights again. If they want to become Jews again, then they can too... What's stopping them?

It seems like you are saying that it's baloney that the houses were demolished for the Separation Wall, for exclusive roads, and for settlements, because houses are actually demolished as (1) collective punishment (15%), (2) a military assault on enemy installations, (3)after buying their homes [I assume this wouldn't be counted in the official statistics as "demolishing a Palestinian home"], (4) for lacking a permit (25%)

Well, wouldn't the 60% of the time that homes were demolished as "clearing operations" include houses demolished to make way for the wall?
And doesn't it make sense that officials would be more likely to deny pemits and demolish houses in terrain that was intended for the Wall, settlements, and roads (reason #4)?
After all, the settlements, roads, and Wall take up alot of land, and it seems like Palestinians wouldn't all simply have agreed to sell their homes for high prices.

If you look at the map of the area "captured" by the Separation Wall, you may notice that it focuses on large areas around the major cities of Jerusalem, Bethlehem, and Ramallah, where I assume many people would naturally live:
http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lr8oefi1Cs1qjd0x5.jpg

No way... We should have more walls to protect the innocent. Actually I think the Israelis should make more walls otherwise more innocent Arab Christians will become prey to the extremists..

A point to make here... Even if the Jews hate us Christians which in many cases they might, we are still to stand with them. Even if they shoot at us, call us names, take our homes... They are still our brothers and are called of God. We must protect our brothers even though they might not like us... We might get beat up in the process, but all the horrible things Christians did to the Jews I'm not surprised they may hate us. In many ways I don't blame them... We are at their mercy..

I'm sorry, but that is the truth... We stand with them at all costs. Even though it might hurt...

Not budging..

Amen, Gman

Me too...

Not budging..
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Hello Gman!

I like writing to you, and I value your opinion. So here I have an issue. Pretty much you raised good ideas in your first post, and more in your ones above. So would you recommend I generally write about what I didn't get a chance to respond to, or the most recent responses? This question sometimes comes up for me on threads with alot of discussion

Well, for right now I think I will just start with where I left off, if that's OK.

You had pointed out about demolishing homes:

Since 1967, the Israeli government has demolished over 24,000 Palestinian homes -- which families have built on their own land inside the Occupied Territories -- in order to:
* Make room for Israeli settlements
* Create Israeli-only “by-pass” roads for Israeli settlers to drive to and from their new homes in the Territories
* Build the Separation Wall deep into the West Bank, effectively annexing large settlement blocs situated on Palestinian land

Again this is baloney... On top of that, Arabs are welcomed to join Israel any time. However, their rights are FORFEITED when they start using their homes for terrorist activities. We would do exactly the same thing here too in America. In fact I would say that the IDF has been too generous to the Arabs in many many situations...
If you fight against the establishment or use your house as a missile base you will LOOSE your rights.... It's very very simple to understand.
Same policies would happen here in America too..

It sounds unusual for me to think that all the Palestinians are welcomed to join Israel anytime, because that would allow maybe 7 million Palestinians, including refugees to join. I could be wrong, but it seems to me the offer is just for Palestinian residents of East Jerusalem.

Also, I personally don't believe the family's civil rights are forfeited when the radicals make the tragic attacks. And even those radicals have some human rights, like against torture.

Now of course in America when people do crimes they get deprived of rights, but they still keep some minimal ones. I am personally an opponent of waterboarding and other bad stuff. I mean, protection from cruel punishment should be something important that separates us from the terrorists. Nor do we bulldoze families' homes when people do bad stuff or fight the establishment.

On the flip side, you are probably right when you say we would do the same thing in America- because our army did pretty much the same thing or worse, destroying whole Indian villages as retribution for attacks on settlers. It seems pretty bad.

As for being too generous, probably this has happened, like in the recent swap. It seems their government should have also required an improvement in relations or some agreement with Hamas for releasing so many offenders. But maybe they did have an agreement they didn't publicize. But I don't want to be too negative about it either, because I have sympathy for Shalit and his family, and would like to think some of the other released people weren't so bad either.

You commented:

Go to Israel sometime and see the conditions of these homes... Often times these places are rat infested areas with no roofs. I wouldn't even let my dog live there.

I think it is sad people have been reduced to living in such conditions. That's really sad. Obviously if people had the money they wouldn't want to.
I could see bad housing quality as a possible justification for demolition. But that doesn't really explain to me why 94% of applications to build houses are denied in the first place, which in turn lead to demolitions for lack of permits.

You said about the petition's endorsers: "If these groups choose to fight against God that is their own choice..."
But is opposing the destruction of 24,000 homes really fighting against God? I mean, what about Jesus' words that visiting people in prison was in a way visiting Jesus? Maybe the Christian groups are saying they feel bad for all the people whose houses are being destroyed?

I like your sympathetic, uniting way of thinking about Jews and Christians:

Technically Jews and Christians are BROTHERS. Jews are God's CHOSEN people..

Can I ask where do Jewish Christians fit in? Or perhaps when say they are brothers you mean Jews and nonJewish Christians? That sounds true, like branches on an olive tree, and how the "sons of Abraham" are brothers, and how we could say we are both God's children.

Likewise, I agree that "Jews are God's CHOSEN people.." But aren't Christians also God's people, whom he chose too?
After all, what about St Peter's beautiful words in 1 Peter 2:9-10:

• But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light
  Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

The idea that Jews and Christians are both God's people and his children would go along with your words of brotherhood.

You noted:

God defined the borders of Israel in Genesis 15:18-21 which is still in full effect today.

Sometimes for me applying Old Testament promises/prophecies to the Christian era can be confusing. In a way perhaps this is part of prophecy, which is itself mystical.
So for example here when it talks about Israel, does it mean God's spiritual people Israel, which might include Christians? Or perhaps it means a specific ethnic group?
If either, then Israel could include Palestinian Christians, unless unique Israelite religious practices were required. But St Paul's reasoning about how Christians are adopted by Abraham through Jesus suggests to me Christians would spiritually be part of Israel too.

Finally, why do you say "'so-called' Christians":

# Private Name
Three people I know personally, all Palestinian Christians, have lost their homes. One family was given 15 minutes to collect their belongings, was told to leave the area and never return. Another family was forced to watch as their home was destroyed and the third family was sent out of town and returned to find their house and all of their possessions gone.

Well too bad for these "so called" Christians....

Do you feel they don't have Christian beliefs because the army has treated them harshly?
That doesn't make sense to me.

Rakovsky wrote: It sounds unusual for me to think that all the Palestinians are welcomed to join Israel anytime, because that would allow maybe 7 million Palestinians, including refugees to join. I could be wrong, but it seems to me the offer is just for Palestinian residents of East Jerusalem.

No... All Arabs can join Israel at any time. Remember there was no Palestine so there are no real Palestinians. These Arabs however REFUSE to join Israel because they despise democracy. They hate it for what it stands for.. Equal rights for women, no dictatorships, voting rights, etc.. They would rather be under the rule of the extremely destructive Sharia law where hatred rules at every corner..

Rakovsky wrote:Also, I personally don't believe the family's civil rights are forfeited when the radicals make the tragic attacks. And even those radicals have some human rights, like against torture.

If any family harbors terrorists then yes, they give up their rights too... Too bad for them.

Rakovsky wrote:Now of course in America when people do crimes they get deprived of rights, but they still keep some minimal ones. I am personally an opponent of waterboarding and other bad stuff. I mean, protection from cruel punishment should be something important that separates us from the terrorists. Nor do we bulldoze families' homes when people do bad stuff or fight the establishment.

Water-boarding has helped find these murderers in many cases... I'm all for it. In fact I think it too soft.. Get caught in an Arab country and you will be lucky to leave with your head on.

Rakovsky wrote:On the flip side, you are probably right when you say we would do the same thing in America- because our army did pretty much the same thing or worse, destroying whole Indian villages as retribution for attacks on settlers. It seems pretty bad.

What does this have to do with anything? What about our Christian forefathers who murdered millions of Jews?? What did the Jewish people ever do to deserve such treatment by the Christians?? They were murdered in cold blood. When will this bloodshed stop?

I don't like Christians that kill Jews.. They are not my brothers..

Rakovsky wrote:As for being too generous, probably this has happened, like in the recent swap. It seems their government should have also required an improvement in relations or some agreement with Hamas for releasing so many offenders. But maybe they did have an agreement they didn't publicize. But I don't want to be too negative about it either, because I have sympathy for Shalit and his family, and would like to think some of the other released people weren't so bad either.

You call that a good trade? Over a thousand prisoners for one?? These thugs murdered hundreds of Jews... And did you ever see Shalit? That poor kid was a skeleton. I was very surprised he was alive...

Rakovsky wrote:I think it is sad people have been reduced to living in such conditions. That's really sad. Obviously if people had the money they wouldn't want to.

The Arabs put themselves there. The Israelis want to help, but they are always refused... They would rather live under the murderous conditions of Sharia law.

Rakovsky wrote:I could see bad housing quality as a possible justification for demolition. But that doesn't really explain to me why 94% of applications to build houses are denied in the first place, which in turn lead to demolitions for lack of permits.

If they would stop the killings then there would be better conditions. However, they persist, therefore they have no more rights...

Rakovsky wrote:But is opposing the destruction of 24,000 homes really fighting against God? I mean, what about Jesus' words that visiting people in prison was in a way visiting Jesus? Maybe the Christian groups are saying they feel bad for all the people whose houses are being destroyed?

Yes... Individually we can help and pray for them but corporately if they harbor terrorists then they must be destroyed so that innocent Arab, Christian, and Jewish civilians are not hurt... This is not rocket science.

Rakovsky wrote:Can I ask where do Jewish Christians fit in? Or perhaps when say they are brothers you mean Jews and nonJewish Christians? That sounds true, like branches on an olive tree, and how the "sons of Abraham" are brothers, and how we could say we are both God's children.

It has nothing to do with genetics but everything to do with faith. Technically everyone is God's children, everyone has rights under God.. However, God has given special privileges and conditions to the Jews. Therefore we as gentiles must submit to them.

Rakovsky wrote:Likewise, I agree that "Jews are God's CHOSEN people.." But aren't Christians also God's people, whom he chose too?
After all, what about St Peter's beautiful words in 1 Peter 2:9-10:

• But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light
  Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

The idea that Jews and Christians are both God's people and his children would go along with your words of brotherhood.

Again everyone can be God's children.. Whether you are Arab, Jew, European, etc.. However, if you fall under the faith of Jew, God has given them special rights.. In order to understand this, you have to understand the mechanics of scripture. Right now, both Jew and Christians are blinded, but one day the curtain will be lifted.

Also anyone who says they are Christian doesn't automatically mean they are Christian either. That is explained in the book of Matthew.

Matthew 7:22-24 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!

Rakovsky wrote:Sometimes for me applying Old Testament promises/prophecies to the Christian era can be confusing. In a way perhaps this is part of prophecy, which is itself mystical.
So for example here when it talks about Israel, does it mean God's spiritual people Israel, which might include Christians? Or perhaps it means a specific ethnic group?
If either, then Israel could include Palestinian Christians, unless unique Israelite religious practices were required. But St Paul's reasoning about how Christians are adopted by Abraham through Jesus suggests to me Christians would spiritually be part of Israel too.

Again.. No one is opposing Arabs who have most of the middle east with the oil... God has blessed them richly.. Israel is the land of the Jews.. Christians however know their place. Christians are to bond with the Jews to help form Israel under God.. Right now however the Jews are in the driver seat under God. Christians must do our part to help build Zion so that the rest of the world will prosper.. Including all Arabs and all other races.

Only Jews have the power to call back Yeshua. We as gentiles will have to wait for that to happen. How long I don't know..

Rakovsky wrote:Do you feel they don't have Christian beliefs because the army has treated them harshly?
That doesn't make sense to me.

No I have no remorse for Christians that harbor fugitives... If these Christians are terrorists then they should be locked up... Just like any other murderer..

It's time to choose your side... The line in the sand has been drawn, either you stand with the Jews or stand against them. Choose your side...

Dear B.W.,

Hello. I would like to explain why I support the petition for Palestinians to keep their homes. I care about people's ability to live and have shelter, I care about the descendants of the first Christians in the Holy Land, and I feel responsible for my government's policies in other countries.

So I am pretty doubtful that the petition for Palestinians to keep their homes is based on liberals' moral equivalency.
Moral equivalency means denying that a moral hierarchy can be assessed to both sides of a conflict.
Part of my special concern for the Christians of the Holy Land comes from the fact that I am Christian, and we received our faith from their forefathers. But I don't think I should value other people's ability to have shelter less because of my concern for Christians.

Likewise, I have a special concern for my government's policies, want them to be good, and want them to correct mistakes. But concern for America's policies doesn't mean I must admire other governments' actions. If my government decides it is going to support hurting people, I naturally want to stop it more than if a foreign government does the same act to the same extent in another country.

I don't understand how you mean this makes the opposition live to its own standards though. The standard in this case would be valuing people's houses, and I guess you mean the opposition is the Israeli army. That would make sense.

Is the petition lopsided? Well, the petition is directed to stop just one policy, so it is not an overview of the whole conflict. So it's not lopsided as a petition, but would be lopsided if you read it as a full expose of the entire conflict.

Sometimes petitions say that they want to urge a certain action, but acknowledge there are counterarguments. So maybe they could say something like "while it is often said that the demolitions are to punish terrorism, this kind of "collective punishment" only account for 15% of demolitions, and anyway they would be illegal under international law."
In this case, it seems OK that the petitioners want to keep their petition short and mention the main problems.

Second, I disagree that Muslims' main point is the genocide of the Jewish people. Jewish people lived flor centuries and still live in Muslim countries. And while there was serious persecution, the Muslim governments did not perform an entire genocide of the Jewish people. My impression is that the "main point" of most of the Palestinians resisting is to have their own country.

When you ask "What is correct – genocide or live and live policy?", of course the answer is a live and live policy. That is the policy I want. So my problem is that house demolitions are not a policy of two peoples living in peace. Instead, it appears to be a policy of clearing away living people by making them homeless and replacing them with other peoples' houses. Rather than allowing people to live together, destroying their homes would devastate them.
This kind of mistreatment would stimulate more strife and indignation, which is what we want to avoid.

Finally, I want to add that conservatives are among those concerned about the treatment of Palestinian Christians. An article in the American Conservative reports:

Forgotten Christians
Anders Strindberg, May 24, 2004, http://www.theamericanconservative.com/ ... y/24/00013

Mel Gibson’s “The Passion of the Christ” is playing to full houses in the Syrian capital Damascus. Watching it here turns out to be much the same as watching it on opening night in New York—customarily rowdy moviegoers observe a reverent silence, the usual sound of candy wrappers is replaced by sobbing and gasping, and, at the end of it all, the audience files out of the theater in silence and contemplation. Many of those watching the movie on this occasion are Palestinian Christian refugees whose parents or grandparents were purged from their homeland—the land of Christ—at the foundation of Israel in 1948. For them the movie has an underlying symbolic meaning not easily perceived in the West: not only is it a depiction of the trial, scourging, and death of Jesus, it is also a symbolic depiction of the fate of the Palestinian people. “This is how we feel,” says Zaki, a 27-year old Palestinian Christian whose family hails from Haifa. “We take beating after beating at the hands of the world, they crucify our people, they insult us, but we refuse to surrender.”

Today it is believed that the number of Christians in Israel and occupied Palestine number some 175,000, just over 2 percent of the entire population, but the numbers are rapidly dwindling due to mass emigration. Of those who have remained in the region, most live in Lebanon, where they share in the same bottomless misery as all other refugees, confined to camps where schools are under-funded and overcrowded, where housing is ramshackle, and sanitary conditions are appalling. Most, however, have fled the region altogether. No reliable figures are available, but it is estimated that between 100,000 and 300,000 Palestinian Christians currently live in the U.S.

Yet U.S. media and politicians have become accustomed to thinking of and talking about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict as one in which an enlightened democracy is constantly forced to repel attacks from crazy-eyed Islamists bent on the destruction of the Jewish people and the imposition of an Islamic state. Palestinians are equated with Islamists, Islamists with terrorists. It is presumably because all organized Christian activity among Palestinians is non-political and non-violent that the community hardly ever hits the Western headlines; suicide bombers sell more copy than people who congregate for Bible study.

Christians find themselves under the hammer of the Israeli occupation to no less an extent than Muslims, yet America—supposedly a Christian country—stands idly by because... “To be a Christian from the land of Christ is an honor,” says Abbas, a Palestinian Christian whose family lived in Jerusalem for many generations until the purge of 1948. “To be expelled from that land is an injury, and these Zionist Christians in America add insult.” Abbas is one of the handful of Palestinian Christians that could be described as Evangelical, belonging to a group that appears to be distantly related to the Plymouth Brethren. Cherishing the role of devil’s advocate, I had to ask him, “Is the State of Israel not in fact the fulfillment of God’s promise and a necessary step in the second coming of Christ?” Abbas looked at me briefly and laughed. “You’re kidding, right? You know what they do to our people and our land.”

Hate begets hate, violence begets violence and the circle is never ending, generation to generation...

When somebody has taken a position on the israeli-Palestinian conflict it is often impossible to change their minds, I gave on debating this topic for just that reason. Trying to change peoples minds who have strong opinions on the topic , like gman for example, is like trying to move mount Everest with a twig.