Evidence for God from Science

Hey guys, I was wanting to ask you all about this argument I saw while I was debating a atheist in a chatroom the other day. He claims he is taking part at the occupy wall street protests in New York.

He mentioned that one of the reasons why he doesn't consider Christianity is the "fact" that Christianity was and still is merely a smoke and mirrors system created by the intelligent and rich ruling class in order to passify the poor, dumb, and starving masses as a means to keep them from rising up and either disposing or even killing the rich.

He cites how the early church's quick growth that spread so fast that by the time constine became a Christian he made it the official religion of his kingdom.
I was going to ask you guys if there are any good ways I can respond to him. Thanks.

cubeus19 wrote:Hey guys, I was wanting to ask you all about this argument I saw while I was debating a atheist in a chatroom the other day. He claims he is taking part at the occupy wall street protests in New York.

He mentioned that one of the reasons why he doesn't consider Christianity is the "fact" that Christianity was and still is merely a smoke and mirrors system created by the intelligent and rich ruling class in order to passify the poor, dumb, and starving masses as a means to keep them from rising up and either disposing or even killing the rich.

He cites how the early church's quick growth that spread so fast that by the time constine became a Christian he made it the official religion of his kingdom.
I was going to ask you guys if there are any good ways I can respond to him. Thanks.

Right cause Jesus and the 12 apostles where some of them were mere fishermen were in the rich ruling class.... and the apostles would risk their lives, their better lives and would go through countless persecutions for a lie they contrived where any of them to get out of death would have to do is deny Christ to be left alone yet none of them did so...

Lol even if what he says is true about Constantine and making Christianity a state religion ( i'm pretty sure that is true but i dont know much history on this), what effect does that have on the truth value of the Christian claims? For example, if a murderer says 2+2= 4 are you going to discredit that truth claim because he is a murderer?

It is a matter of personal distaste, nothing else. Reason is just an excuse for this guy.

I don't even know how to start without LOL.

I've heard some dumb arguments sort of like this before. I've heard that Christianity is a "social construct" from someone. I laughed and asked how. Didn't get an answer.

I just had to flat out tell them. Christians mean no harm to anyone, and I am sorry for what these "Christians" said or did to you. Hopefully you'd be open to hearing it when the its right for you. You can't do much other then that.

cubeus19 wrote:Hey guys, I was wanting to ask you all about this argument I saw while I was debating a atheist in a chatroom the other day. He claims he is taking part at the occupy wall street protests in New York.

He mentioned that one of the reasons why he doesn't consider Christianity is the "fact" that Christianity was and still is merely a smoke and mirrors system created by the intelligent and rich ruling class in order to passify the poor, dumb, and starving masses as a means to keep them from rising up and either disposing or even killing the rich.

He cites how the early church's quick growth that spread so fast that by the time constine became a Christian he made it the official religion of his kingdom.
I was going to ask you guys if there are any good ways I can respond to him. Thanks.

Classic "straw man". Instead of discussing true Christianity(relationship with God the Father, through Christ, by the power of the Holy Spirit), he argues against a false christianity. Why don't you try to show him what true Christianity is? That way at least he can choose to accept or deny Christ, instead of man-made religion.

Up until Constantine and from the death of Christ, Christianity was a persecuted religion.
Persecuted by those in power and with wealth.
How in the world does that FACT mesh with this atheists "theory" ?
It doesn't, hence he is wrong.

That isn't even Christianity so how can you argue that?

Then it depends what you're arguing. Everything he said could be right AND the Bible could be completely true as well. Of course everything he has said is not true or fair. Christianity has been used by ruling powers before, but not in this "grand conspiracy" that some of these atheists seem to think... but if its used is that the fault of the rulers or the fault of Christianity? They've also used money, family, and moral values in general against people.

But this is a straw man and its what some people unfortunately do, they dehumanize people that they're jealous of- namely people in "high places" and the rich. No, the rich can never be ordinary people, that have to be out to get you. They can never hold beliefs for the same reason that you do, its because they're using you. For people in politics its even worse, they can NEVER believe what they're saying... it doesn't take much intelligence to see that one its a broad, sweeping generalization that happens to be wrong in most cases.

Ask questions. Do NOT try to refute him. It is likely that his belief is merely something he adopted without much critical thought. In the case that his belief is well defended and researched, asking questions will reveal this. If not, asking questions will expose it, and allow you to move on to real issues.

How did you come to hold that position?
What do you mean by that?
What research helped you arrive at that conclusion?
What sources would you recommned, where I can investigate this for myself?
Have you ever considered...........

Sounds like he's heard Napoleon's quotes: “Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet” and "Religion is what keeps the poor man from murdering the rich”. Kinda hard to argue that it hasn't been used for these purposes, also kinda hard to argue that is all Christianity is. As others have mentioned, that Christianity has been used as leverage for some rather unpalatable deeds does not negate all value in Christianity. Stalin's Russia is quite a nice case study as to the good that can come of actively dismissing the 'opiate of the masses'. That both atheism and Christianity have been used by the rich and powerful to exploit the masses doesn't prove much, maybe it proves that there is tendency for the rich and powerful to exploit the not so rich and powerful.

To say that it was created by the rich just seems silly, to say that it was promoted by intelligent people is much less of a leap. He could attempt to argue that it was hijacked by the rich and powerful and utilised to some extent to keep them rich and powerful but created by them seems to be pushing it. Maybe he meant rich in spirituality and powerful intellects, not wealthy political opportunists, maybe not.

I would think even without a belief in the special divinity of Jesus someone occupying Wall St would see some kinship with the teachings of Jesus. Money lenders, sell everything you have and give it to the poor, that sort to thing.

Woody Guthrie's Jesus Christ sums up much of the current 'Occupy the city centre' movement for me:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDS00Pnhkqk

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