neo-x wrote:
I didn't say he can not know the future, I said, he purposely don't, except in prophecies, otherwise his knowing would be true and since it would be true, it will cancel out free will from teh present time to the foreseeable future.
I see what you're saying, neo. But, I disagree. I don't understand how God knowing what we will choose to do, equates with us not being able to choose. Please explain how that connection is made.
It's quite simple rick, what God knows we will do in future, would have to be true at any given time. If I choose to do something else down the road then it cancels out what God knew to be true.
e.g
1. I want to go to dinner to cafe X on coming Saturday.
2. God knows I will go to cafe X before hand, even before I made the plan.
3. Since God knows I am gonna do that, it must be true.
3. At the last minute I have a change of plans, I go to Cafe Y.
Now one can say that God already knew I would go to Cafe Y, If that is true then really I cannot change my plan can I? The plan is already there, It would have to be Cafe Y.
What if on the route to cafe Y, I plan to stop at Cafe Z and then go back home. You see it is an endless chain.
Did God know from the start that I was going to cafe Z?
God's knowledge has to be true at any time or it is not true. I think nothing is that hard set in stone, except prophecies. If my will is the same as it is in God's thoughts then my plan of action is already set, I cannot deviate. I will end up at Cafe z, no matter what I do.
Take Jonah's example, he was sent to Nineveh, he chose to go to tarsus, God drove him back, this is a rare case.
Now imagine you are in a CD shop, no ones looking and you contemplate to steal some CD's, does God already know you are going to steal or he knows you walked away. suppose you walk way. Now you never committed the crime, only thought about it but at the end you either weren't brave enough to take the risk, or someone came or you had a change of heart, whatever.
Now imagine the same with lust, you're eyeing a beautiful young lady, you covet, you start lusting, but you never do anything else. Now, did God knew you would be lusting after that woman from the start or did at any point you had a choice, that you don't have to do it. If so, did God already knew you would turn away? its either God knew you would lust or you would turn away. And note, an any case it would have to be true. You can't have both at the same time because if you say God knew both way then it would only come down some steps to my position that God doesn't see past the choices that we make.
If God knew even before you were born that you would lust, then who made that decision, you? NO, it was already set that you would make that decision. But what if you are aware of that choice and you don't wanna do it. You would have to do it. This is a hair line problem here Rick. You can't say, God knew I would lust but then it was my choice to lust. How can it be your choice to lust when God ALREADY knew it would be this way? What God knows must be true Rick, at all times.
I'll give you the example of Eli,
"27 Now a man of God came to Eli and said to him, “This is what the LORD says: ‘Did I not clearly reveal myself to your ancestor’s family when they were in Egypt under Pharaoh? 28 I chose your ancestor out of all the tribes of Israel to be my priest, to go up to my altar, to burn incense, and to wear an ephod in my presence. I also gave your ancestor’s family all the food offerings presented by the Israelites. 29 Why do you[e] scorn my sacrifice and offering that I prescribed for my dwelling? Why do you honor your sons more than me by fattening yourselves on the choice parts of every offering made by my people Israel?’
30 “Therefore the LORD, the God of Israel, declares: ‘I promised that members of your family would minister before me forever.’ But now the LORD declares: ‘Far be it from me! Those who honor me I will honor, but those who despise me will be disdained. 31 The time is coming when I will cut short your strength and the strength of your priestly house, so that no one in it will reach old age, 32 and you will see distress in my dwelling. Although good will be done to Israel, no one in your family line will ever reach old age. 33 Every one of you that I do not cut off from serving at my altar I will spare only to destroy your sight and sap your strength, and all your descendants will die in the prime of life."
Look, God had promised to Eli's ancestors, but then it says in verse 30 "But now the LORD declares: ‘Far be it from me!" Apparently God had a change of plans here. When he made that promise centuries ago to a certain family but now it has to be changed because someone didn't walk with God as he should have had. If God already knew that down the road Eli was the weak link, then dare I say, Eli had no choice.
Lets take it up one more notch. Did God knew before hand that Lucifer would rebel. If he knew about it, he must have known it before Lucifer was even created. What choice does Lucifer have.
So I think there is a problem when we say, God already knew what I was going to do, but the choice was mine. No, if God already knew, then it is true and you would have to do it. Since God knew that from forever, before you were ever born.
In this way a sinner could be without excuse, and God is not justified.
Hope this clears my point up.
