Evidence for God from Science

Dom,

Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

If this is as absolute as you tell me then please tell me, how did the guy, next to cross with Jesus, got to the kingdom of God, was it not faith and not a water baptism that got him there. and if you say faith, then why is the water important?

If what you say is literal as it is, that no one can enter the kingdom without water (real water, as you say) and the spirit. Then the thief on the cross lacked both, my friend. Why does he gets a free pass, and if he does, why not others?

Also can you please give me the scriptures as to where the twelve disciples were baptised, when and how and by whom? You show me the scripture to back this up, Dom, please.

This isn't an insult to the person who thinks this, its an insult to the intelligence of the person you're telling this to.

If my questioning insults your intellignece then I can only apologize and ask for your forgiveness, I mean it. It was not my intention to insult you in any manner. My objections stand still nonetheless.

domokunrox wrote:
Water is water. If you can read the words, You MUST be born of water AND of THE spirit. I did not interpret this wrong. You guys may disagree, fine. I brought this to the attention of everyone here, and thats all that needs to be said here. I made my case.

John 3:3-6

3In reply Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born [gennēthē   to beget, bring forth] again.” [anōthen   from above]

4“How can a man be born when he is old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb to be born!”

5Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born [gennēthē   to beget, bring forth] of water and the Spirit.

6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

Flesh gives birth to flesh (hence the “water”) and the Spirit gives birth to Spirit, hence we are not once begotten, but twice begotten. Are we begotten the second time of water? Or, as the text reads, are we begotten of the Spirit? Who do you think begets, water or God? Which do you think matches up with Paul:

Romans 10:9-10
9 That if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

neo-x wrote:Dom,
If this is as absolute as you tell me then please tell me, how did the guy, next to cross with Jesus, got to the kingdom of God, was it not faith and not a water baptism that got him there. and if you say faith, then why is the water important?

If what you say is literal as it is, that no one can enter the kingdom without water (real water, as you say) and the spirit. Then the thief on the cross lacked both, my friend. Why does he gets a free pass, and if he does, why not others?

Also can you please give me the scriptures as to where the twelve disciples were baptised, when and how and by whom? You show me the scripture to back this up, Dom, please.

If my questioning insults your intellignece then I can only apologize and ask for your forgiveness, I mean it. It was not my intention to insult you in any manner. My objections stand still nonetheless.

Neo-x, Jesus IS THE AUTHORITY to forgive sins. Are you saying Jesus can't do that? He asked Jesus to forgive him, and he showed mercy to him. Think about what you're saying, Neo-x. That man would have never got the chance to be baptized because he will die there as well. We have lucked out. We have a redeemer who payed the penalty of sin for all mankind. We are without excuse. Its not a "free pass", Jesus showed mercy and you shouldn't be complaining.

Here in Mark 10:38-40 James and John asked Jesus if they can sit on the left and right of him of his glory. Jesus replied

38 But Jesus said to them, “You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I drink, or to be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized?” 39 They said to Him, “We are able.” And Jesus said to them, “The cup that I drink you shall drink; and you shall be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized. 40 But to sit on My right or on My left, this is not Mine to give; but it is for those for whom it has been prepared.”

Here is Paul baptizing at Ephesus

1 It happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus, and found some disciples. 2 He said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said to him, “No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.” 3 And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” And they said, “Into John’s baptism.” 4 Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Here is Acts 2:38 again

38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Hence, hear the word, believe it, repent, confess Jesus is your savior, and be baptized in his name. Those are the steps, guys.


I am going to be honest here, guys. I am rather embarrassed here. Again, not to be mocking here. This is God and Science and this is the only place where water isn't water. This is the only place I know where water is actually amniotic fluid. Why am I getting so much resistance to baptism here. Are you guys frightened of the water?

Why don't I just link you guys?

Heres the correct way


Heres the wrong way you guys are saying


Go here and read more. I'm tired of this. Seriously. Wearing me out.
//www.bebaptized.org/commandedbutnotessential.htm

domokunrox wrote:

neo-x wrote:Dom,
If this is as absolute as you tell me then please tell me, how did the guy, next to cross with Jesus, got to the kingdom of God, was it not faith and not a water baptism that got him there. and if you say faith, then why is the water important?

If what you say is literal as it is, that no one can enter the kingdom without water (real water, as you say) and the spirit. Then the thief on the cross lacked both, my friend. Why does he gets a free pass, and if he does, why not others?

Also can you please give me the scriptures as to where the twelve disciples were baptised, when and how and by whom? You show me the scripture to back this up, Dom, please.

If my questioning insults your intellignece then I can only apologize and ask for your forgiveness, I mean it. It was not my intention to insult you in any manner. My objections stand still nonetheless.

Neo-x, Jesus IS THE AUTHORITY to forgive sins. Are you saying Jesus can't do that? He asked Jesus to forgive him, and he showed mercy to him. Think about what you're saying, Neo-x. That man would have never got the chance to be baptized because he will die there as well. We have lucked out. We have a redeemer who payed the penalty of sin for all mankind. We are without excuse. Its not a "free pass", Jesus showed mercy and you shouldn't be complaining.

Here in Mark 10:38-40 James and John asked Jesus if they can sit on the left and right of him of his glory. Jesus replied

38 But Jesus said to them, “You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I drink, or to be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized?” 39 They said to Him, “We are able.” And Jesus said to them, “The cup that I drink you shall drink; and you shall be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized. 40 But to sit on My right or on My left, this is not Mine to give; but it is for those for whom it has been prepared.”

Here is Paul baptizing at Ephesus

1 It happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus, and found some disciples. 2 He said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said to him, “No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.” 3 And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” And they said, “Into John’s baptism.” 4 Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Here is Acts 2:38 again

38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Hence, hear the word, believe it, repent, confess Jesus is your savior, and be baptized in his name. Those are the steps, guys.


I am going to be honest here, guys. I am rather embarrassed here. Again, not to be mocking here. This is God and Science and this is the only place where water isn't water. This is the only place I know where water is actually amniotic fluid. Why am I getting so much resistance to baptism here. Are you guys frightened of the water?

Why don't I just link you guys?

Heres the correct way


Heres the wrong way you guys are saying


Go here and read more. I'm tired of this. Seriously. Wearing me out.
//www.bebaptized.org/commandedbutnotessential.htm

Dom, where am I told to be baptised in water in order to be saved? You are all over the place, man.

Save the feelings of embarrassment for yourself, because this is painful...

Dom

Neo-x, Jesus IS THE AUTHORITY to forgive sins. Are you saying Jesus can't do that? He asked Jesus to forgive him, and he showed mercy to him. Think about what you're saying, Neo-x.

I agree but it was you who claimed that without being born of water we can not go to heaven. You asserted it as an absolute, that if we haven't done this, then we should be fearful of the consequences. and I quote you

5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

Does this not strike fear in the heart of anyone here? Do you have the faith to follow him?

Dom, you can't have it both ways, either Baptism by water, as you say, is essential to salvation, or it isn't. What you are saying now, is what I said before, Baptism or no baptism, God can forgive your sins, accept you as his son and enter you into his kingdom. If you think that it only takes faith, then I can not see why water is so important to you. I mean you can say I am frightened of water, but are you obsessive about it? I mean how do you respond to this?

And the references you quoted are not about the original twelve disciples, I asked you about those. How do you know they were baptised, were they?

It really is a stretch of a connection you tried to make between

and you shall be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized

&

Here is Paul baptizing at Ephesus

These disciples said this "“No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.”" Clearly, Jesus' disciples knew about the Holy spirit, they knew it very well. They had seen its work at the day of the Pentecost and even earlier when Jesus talked to them about it. So you surely don't mean to tell me that these are the 12 disciples of Jesus, the same very twelve that Jesus spoke to in Mark 10:38-40. Because the words tell me they are not.

I am going to be honest here, guys. I am rather embarrassed here. Again, not to be mocking here. This is God and Science and this is the only place where water isn't water. This is the only place I know where water is actually amniotic fluid. Why am I getting so much resistance to baptism here. Are you guys frightened of the water?

Why? I am not embarrassed to answer you even when your view directly opposes mine. Can you not extend me the same courtesy or am I too silly or amateur to have this gesture from you?

About water, you would know that water is used in so much symbolism in the Bible that there are a lot of interpretations of it. So I think you are dragging it when you say,

"This is God and Science and this is the only place where water isn't water. This is the only place I know where water is actually amniotic fluid"

As you say, you have been into the Bible and apologetics and all, I am kind of surprised you didn't come across this. I mean, like you, I do not think that water is amniotic fluid, but I don't react to it with such intensity. Some people have their own interpretation, we all have. It is not a big issue. I can disagree, which I often do. You gotta take disagreements as well.

And if you think we're all idiots here, then I can't really help it, can I?

PS. By the way Dom, I was baptised with water, and I am certainly not undermining the symbolism it holds to the gospel. But being baptised of water does not make me any better then someone who is not baptised of water and still love God with all their hearts and carry out his will. It is the Spirit that of God that makes me a child of God. Baptism at best is the symbolism of the Gospel and the act of the Christ but is it essential to salvation? I do not hold so.

Also you really have to ask - why does God have to have us going through water to save us - can't he manage it without that?

I can imagine the conversation.

Person: Lord I believe in you with all my heart soul and mind and I will live the rest of my days following you changing my life forever.
God: Ok - but did you have a wash?
Person: No
God : Then I am not interested.


I mean come on please? Can't you see how ridiculous that sounds!!!!

The article was written by "Rich Deem", and I notice that you are RickD. Is that your article? Is Rick just a nickname or something?

Dom, Rich Deem is the founder of this website. I'm RickD. Rich Deem's name is "Rich", on the member list. I'm a moderator, Rich is the site owner.

This is pure nonsense. Why would Jesus say you need to be born of water if you ALREADY ARE BORN OF WATER?

Dom, If you read the entire article, instead of "briefly looking through it", as you did, the context was made clear. Remember, Jesus was talking to Nicodemus.
From the article:

In stating that one must be born again, Jesus referred to 2 births - the first the physical birth on Earth. Nicodemus recognized this as the first requirement, since he stated that a man cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb (John 3:4). In the very next statement he explains the two kinds of birth. "Born of water" refers to the physical birth, whereas "born of the Spirit" refers to being "born again" or the second birth. In the next verse, Jesus clarifies the statement explaining that "born of water" refers to being "born of flesh." Jesus was clear and direct. There is no mention of baptism anywhere. "Born of water" never refers to baptism in any other verse in the entire Bible. The Greek word used is "hudwr" (Strong's number G5204).1 The Greek word for baptism is "baptisma" (Strong's number G908).2 If Jesus had wanted to refer to baptism, He would have used this word. In fact, the word (or a variation of it) occurs 112 times in the New Testament.

We have come to a unfortunate series of events here. I cannot unfortunately do anything for this site if we do not agree on this issue. Where do we go from here, guys?

The question is not where do we go from here, Dom. The question is whether you can be open enough in your discussions with us, mere mortals. You seem to "know" what you know, and aren't open to listening to any differing point of view.

God bless you guys. Please get your baptism sorted out if you are convinced.

Our baptism is sorted out, Dom. We all realize that water baptism is a symbol of the true baptism that comes when the Holy Spirit indwells a person, when he believes the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Dom, at this point, it's obvious you aren't open to correction, even though many people have refuted your belief of "baptismal regeneration". All I can ask now, is for you to bring this before the Lord in humility, and with an open heart.

Domokunrox wrote:

I am going to be honest here, guys. I am rather embarrassed here. Again, not to be mocking here. This is God and Science and this is the only place where water isn't water.

Apparently, GodAndScience isn't the only place where water isn't water. Oh, look, the bible says water is a symbol for something else.
John 4:7-14: 7 There came a woman of Samaria to draw water. Jesus said to her, “Give Me a drink.” 8 For His disciples had gone away into the city to buy food. 9 Therefore the Samaritan woman said to Him, “How is it that You, being a Jew, ask me for a drink since I am a Samaritan woman?” (For Jews have no dealings with Samaritans.) 10 Jesus answered and said to her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, ‘Give Me a drink,’ you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.” 11 She said to Him, “Sir, You have nothing to draw with and the well is deep; where then do You get that living water? 12 “You are not greater than our father Jacob, are You, who gave us the well, and drank of it himself and his sons and his cattle?” 13 Jesus answered and said to her, “Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again; 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.”
Does anyone have a guess as to what Jesus meant here?

Dom, meditate on these verses.
Proverbs 15:33
The fear of the LORD is the instruction for wisdom, And before honor comes humility.

1 Peter 5:5-6
You younger men, likewise, be subject to your elders; and all of you, clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, for God is opposed to the proud, but gives grace to the humble. Humble yourselves, therefore, under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you at the proper time,

James 4:6
But He gives a greater grace. Therefore it says, "God is opposed to the proud, but gives grace to the humble."

Philippians 2:3-11
Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind let each of you regard one another as more important than himself; do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others. Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Matthew 23:12
"And whoever exalts himself shall be humbled; and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted.

This thread is locked for now. Until, and if it gets straightened out.