Evidence for God from Science

My small group was recently discussing characteristics of God, of His standing outside of time, how the distant future is to Him as is yesterday. I made the statement that "God has never had an ORIGINAL thought." And, for a moment, everyone looked at me with a strange, worried ("that's heretical" type of) look. My contention is that as God is ALL-knowing, then there can be absolutely NOTHING that He also hasn't ALWAYS known about - including ALL of His own "future" thoughts and actions. God, even in His unfathomable complexity, is ultimately a "simple" being, in that He simply IS, always HAS BEEN, and ALWAYS has known ALL. God can never have an idea that is new to even HIMSELF. God cannot surprise Himself.

I'd say that all scriptures indicating that God has "changed" His mind or course of action, that these supposed mind "changing" episodes were merely God's reactions, based upon man and His actions (sin or obedience, etc.), albeit are enacted by Him within OUR real-time. But all places in scripture in which God "changed" His mind, that He always knew EVERY course of action He would undertake, how they would "change," what humans would do, and accordingly, precisely how and when He would react to us as we live in OUR allotted earth times and places.

Do you not agree? Any thoughts out there about this?

I do think some of this is beyond human understanding. God is immutable, never changing, and all-knowing... so its not like he's going to come across information he doesn't know about. So I'd tend to agree.


Definition of original from a quick google search-

1. Preceding all others in time; first. 2. a. Not derived from something else; fresh and unusual: an original play, not an adaptation.

There's been a ton of talk on this forum recently about God in relation to time and how that all works, I'd say your views on that
could make quite a bit of difference. Could God do things that have never been done before? Of course, I guess you could say that God is the ultimate "original thinker!" Could something occur to God that he hasn't thought of before like a lightbulb coming on in your head? I don't believe so.

narnia4 wrote:I do think some of this is beyond human understanding. God is immutable, never changing, and all-knowing... so its not like he's going to come across information he doesn't know about. So I'd tend to agree.


Definition of original from a quick google search-

1. Preceding all others in time; first. 2. a. Not derived from something else; fresh and unusual: an original play, not an adaptation.

There's been a ton of talk on this forum recently about God in relation to time and how that all works, I'd say your views on that
could make quite a bit of difference. Could God do things that have never been done before? Of course, I guess you could say that God is the ultimate "original thinker!" Could something occur to God that he hasn't thought of before like a lightbulb coming on in your head? I don't believe so.

I wouldn't say God is unchanging i mean the second person of the trinity now has a human nature to which He did not have before.

I wouldn't say God is unchanging i mean the second person of the trinity now has a human nature to which He did not have before.

God can no doubt take on different physical forms (of Three Men, in Genesis 18:1–33); (of the Wrestler, in Genesis 32:22–30); (of Jesus, in Matthew 1:23); (of the Burning Bush, in Exodus 3:1-5). But let's not confuse the various FORMS God has cloaked Himself in, with any supposed changes in WHO He is. God is spirit and He simply IS - He's UNCHANGEABLE and ALL knowing. And ALL means exactly that - ALL of His thoughts and actions and ALL ours, for ALL of eternity.

Philip wrote:My small group was recently discussing characteristics of God, of His standing outside of time, how the distant future is to Him as is yesterday. I made the statement that "God has never had an ORIGINAL thought." And, for a moment, everyone looked at me with a strange, worried ("that's heretical" type of) look. My contention is that as God is ALL-knowing, then there can be absolutely NOTHING that He also hasn't ALWAYS known about - including ALL of His own "future" thoughts and actions. God, even in His unfathomable complexity, is ultimately a "simple" being, in that He simply IS, always HAS BEEN, and ALWAYS has known ALL. God can never have an idea that is new to HIMSELF. God cannot surprise Himself.

I'd say that all scriptures indicating that God has "changed" His mind or course of action, that these supposed mind "changing" episodes were merely God's reactions, based upon man and His actions (sin or obedience, etc.), albeit are enacted by Him within OUR real-time. But all places in scripture in which God "changed" His mind, that He always knew EVERY course of action He would undertake, how they would "change," what humans would do, and accordingly, precisely how and when He would react to us as we live in OUR allotted earth times and places.

Do you not agree? Any thoughts out there about this?

Not only did God not have an original thought, God IS knowledge (from whom all knowledge emanates).

Philip wrote:

I wouldn't say God is unchanging i mean the second person of the trinity now has a human nature to which He did not have before.

God can no doubt take on different physical forms (of Three Men, in Genesis 18:1–33); (of the Wrestler, in Genesis 32:22–30); (of Jesus, in Matthew 1:23); (of the Burning Bush, in Exodus 3:1-5). But let's not confuse the various FORMS God has cloaked Himself in, with any supposed changes in WHO He is. God is spirit and He simply IS - He's UNCHANGEABLE and ALL knowing. And ALL means exactly that - ALL of His thoughts and actions and ALL ours, for ALL of eternity.

Right so you are talking about God's un-changing of his Character! Yes i fully agree here.

Right so you are talking about God's un-changing of his Character! Yes i fully agree here.

Despite His human "cloak," Jesus NEVER had a "human NATURE." He was still FULLY GOD, albeit in a human form. But as for WHO He was and how He thought, and what He knew, etc., none of those ever changed.

Philip wrote:

Right so you are talking about God's un-changing of his Character! Yes i fully agree here.

Despite His human "cloak," Jesus NEVER had a "human NATURE." He was still FULLY GOD, albeit in a human form. But as for WHO He was and how He thought, and what He knew, etc., none of those ever changed.

Umm no.... Christ had both fully God nature and fully Human nature, we are talking heresy if we think that the second person of the Trinity was merely in a body and was faking his human needs, the apostles stressed this because the person who was to be deliverer of sin (or sacrifice for sin) had to represent mankind and only man can do so.

Philip on Wed Nov 16, 2011 9:52 am

Right so you are talking about God's un-changing of his Character! Yes i fully agree here.


Despite His human "cloak," Jesus NEVER had a "human NATURE." He was still FULLY GOD, albeit in a human form. But as for WHO He was and how He thought, and what He knew, etc., none of those ever changed.

Hebrews 2:17 For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.

Philippians 2:7 Instead, he gave up his divine privileges; he took the humble position of a slave and was born as a human being. When he appeared in human form,

2 Corinthians 8:9 For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, so that you through his poverty might become rich.

Romans 8:3 For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man,

Hebrews 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are--yet was without sin.

Hebrews 5:2 He is able to deal gently with those who are ignorant and are going astray, since he himself is subject to weakness.

Hebrews 2:18 Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.

Phillip, if by human nature you mean, that he was without sin, then, yes. Other wise, he had human nature or else a God could not be sacrificed, it had to be a man, who would carry sins.

Jeremiah 1:5 indicates that before we were created God knew that he would create us and to me that say's he is in a constant state of knowing.
So i guess all his thoughts are original but he has just always known them.
Now the real question is do we ever have original thoughts as God already knew what we would think so then they wouldn't be original

Daniel

I think God's each thought is original.

neo-x wrote:I think God's each thought is original.

what he said

The question of the topic is pretty interesting it got me thinking if God is ever knowing from the timeless eternity does that mean that our personalities were in his mind from everlasting to everlasting?

CeT-To wrote:The question of the topic is pretty interesting it got me thinking if God is ever knowing from the timeless eternity does that mean that our personalities were in his mind from everlasting to everlasting?

I my opinion yes.

Danieltwotwenty wrote:

CeT-To wrote:The question of the topic is pretty interesting it got me thinking if God is ever knowing from the timeless eternity does that mean that our personalities were in his mind from everlasting to everlasting?

I my opinion yes.

Mmm seems so though God freely chose to create us - so it could be the case that God had other personalities in mind which he will never actualise into existence, don't you think so?

Mind boggling.