Evidence for God from Science

I am particularly interested in the following verses:

John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
John 6:65 And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.

Sounds like Calvinism. What do you think is the meaning of those verses?

1over137 wrote:I am particularly interested in the following verses:

John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
John 6:65 And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.

Sounds like Calvinism. What do you think is the meaning of those verses?

Oy vey! 1over137, you are a sadist (just joking, please don't be offended). Don't you think we have enough predestinatiion threads going on at the same time?

Well, sorry. I already have read the whole gospel of John, and what I am trying to do is to reconcile some verses. I cannot just live with contradictions.

1over137 wrote:I am particularly interested in the following verses:

John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
John 6:65 And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.

Sounds like Calvinism. What do you think is the meaning of those verses?

The GOJ is a beautifully written work.
What the writer is trying to convey is the words of Christ that mean that it is Our Beloved father that leads Us to Christ, our belief and hope in God the father is what leads us to the Son and it is THROUGH the Son that we can have The father.

PaulSacramento wrote:

1over137 wrote:I am particularly interested in the following verses:

John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
John 6:65 And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.

Sounds like Calvinism. What do you think is the meaning of those verses?

The GOJ is a beautifully written work.
What the writer is trying to convey is the words of Christ that mean that it is Our Beloved father that leads Us to Christ, our belief and hope in God the father is what leads us to the Son and it is THROUGH the Son that we can have The father.

I was reading your sentence (particularly the highlighted part) again and again and I have come to this:
Maybe the verse 44 could be written this way: No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me attracts him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
When something attracts us it means that it touches our heart. And when something can touch our hearts? Only when our hearts are not empty. There is something in our hearts that is in harmony with that something which is attracting us. So, Father attracts us only when our hearts are not cold, are not closed, when they desire for the truth and for the harmony.

Concerning the verse 65: I suppose that it has been granted us when our hearts are like I wrote above.

PaulSacramento wrote:it is Our Beloved father that leads Us to Christ, our belief and hope in God the father is what leads us to the Son...

Sounds like we're already there to me.

PaulSacramento wrote:...and it is THROUGH the Son that we can have The father.

From http://evangelicalarminians.org/node/49 :

“HELKUO, to draw, differs from suro as drawing does from violent dragging…This less violent significance, usually present in helko, but always absent from suro, is seen in the metaphorical use of helko, to signify drawing by inward power, by Divine impulse, John 6:44; 12:32.” [328]

...

The context of John 6 and the theological emphasis of the gospel of John forbids the Calvinist interpretation of John 6:44. The Arminian understanding of prevenient grace, however, does justice to the context of Jn. 6 and the overall tenor of John’s gospel.

...

God’s prevenient or assisting grace is morally drawing all people to Himself (John 12:32). This gracious working of God does not compel or force anyone to believe but enables all to respond to God’s commands to turn away from sin in repentance, and towards the Savior Jesus Christ in faith. Thus, with all the strength of Calvinism, salvation can be ascribed completely to God, but without denying genuine human responsibility that Calvinism does.”

John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
John 6:65 And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.

If we look at these verses on their own, then sure. The first question I'd ask is, "what is it to be drawn?" Regarding verse 65. A logical conclusion is that no one can be saved unless salvation is granted. That is why Christ is crucified from the foundation of the world. Without the reality of the cross and resurection, there is no salvation to grant. Thus, man is incapable of finding God on His own. And when i say finding, I am not talking about general knowledge, but a reality to respond to. Abraham had not conceived the cross, but was still able to exhibit faith. Without the reality of the cross, could Abraham have done such? I say no.

If we stay in the GOJ, then Jesus later said, "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me." We know that lifted up referred to the cross. And, may also refer to the ascension, and thus the completed work of Christ on the Earth, which is the Gospel. No one can come to the son unless the cross was a reality. The Father has made it a reality.

jlay wrote:

John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
John 6:65 And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.

If we look at these verses on their own, then sure. The first question I'd ask is, "what is it to be drawn?" Regarding verse 65. A logical conclusion is that no one can be saved unless salvation is granted. That is why Christ is crucified from the foundation of the world. Without the reality of the cross and resurection, there is no salvation to grant. Thus, man is incapable of finding God on His own. And when i say finding, I am not talking about general knowledge, but a reality to respond to. Abraham had not conceived the cross, but was still able to exhibit faith. Without the reality of the cross, could Abraham have done such? I say no.

If we stay in the GOJ, then Jesus later said, "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me." We know that lifted up referred to the cross. And, may also refer to the ascension, and thus the completed work of Christ on the Earth, which is the Gospel. No one can come to the son unless the cross was a reality. The Father has made it a reality.

So, jlay, you're not a Calvinist?

No sir. Did something I said give you a different impression?

jlay wrote:No sir. Did something I said give you a different impression?

No, your post sounded like you weren't coming from a Calvinist perspective. Just an observation I made, and wanted to be sure.

1over137 wrote:I am particularly interested in the following verses:

John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
John 6:65 And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.

Sounds like Calvinism. What do you think is the meaning of those verses?

In my opinion the Complete Jewish Bible contains the best original language translation into English concerning verse 65…

John 6:65 "This," he said, "is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has made it possible for him." from the Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

With that is mind, help to understand how the word translated Draw meaning in verse 44 is to be understood, not as of forceful dragging but rather a drawing toward without the notion of force in play.

This would line up with the notion of grace and faith – being fully persuaded...

Now look at Ephesians 2:8, 9, 10c and Romans 10:10, 11, 13, 14, 15c and what do you see about how the father Draws?
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