Evidence for God from Science

England and Europe Spiritual Condition

Thought I would begin a post for those across the pond to let us know what the spiritual condition of their respective countries are currently.

I heard from some people living in Leeds, London, and Kent in England, it is pretty secular and bleak. This would mean, that you need to be pretty tough with a good sense of humor to be a Christian in England. I heard that the majority of the old church buildings are homes or bars, etc… Is this true?

Let us know what it is like in your parts of the world!
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B.W., I know this doesn't pertain to us here in the U.S., but I'd like to share a little story. I moved to N.E. Florida in 2005, from Massachusetts. This area of Florida is extremely conservative. At least compared to Massachusetts, where I grew up. A couple of years ago, when I went back to Massachusetts, I got out of the car at a mall near my house. I looked up at the mostly sunny sky, and I immediately felt a kind of cloud of oppression there. It was very real, and very gloomy. I'd never noticed anything like that before. I then began to notice that most of the people there, were walking around with their heads down. Almost like a kind of minor trance state. While I lived there for about 36 years, I never really noticed it. It almost seems like the old "drop a frog into a pot of water, and slowly turn up the heat" kind of thing.

B. W. wrote:I heard from some people living in Leeds, London, and Kent in England, it is pretty secular and bleak. This would mean, that you need to be pretty tough with a good sense of humor to be a Christian in England.

Depends where you are on the map, B.W. Kent has some lovely old churches, as does London (and I dare say leeds too). But the younger generations (which includes my generation) are largely secular in the inner cities. But I'm living in the South West of England now, and the churches are heaving with old and young.

I heard that the majority of the old church buildings are homes or bars, etc… Is this true?

This is news to me. Majority? I've heard of a few 'church properties' being sold due to the CofE falling on 'hard times', but have no clue whether they were replaced by bars or homes. I know Kent quite well, and it has some beautiful old churches, which as far as I am aware are still standing. Same goes for most old churches in London. Apart from a few isolated cases that I am aware of, there is no mass selling off of old churches.

B. W. wrote:Let us know what it is like in your parts of the world!

OK, I might share a little story about Croatia. But first of all, FL pointed out to me only recently that some people across the pond may not know where we are located, so most briefly, we're at the crossroads of central Europe, the Mediterranean, and the Balkans. That's just to the east of Italy.

You may know that from the WWII until 1990, Croatia was a part of the socialist Yugoslavia. This country was governed by communists, who as we know, weren't at the best of terms with religion. Since Christianity has been an important aspect of the Croatian culture and tradition for nearly a millenium, it stood up to this test, in fact, it grew even stronger - supression of the freedom of religion was one of the reasons why many Croats opposed the communist regime, and dreamed about an independent homeland in which they could express their national and religious adherence freely. This moment came in the early 1990s, but the breakup of Yugoslavia was followed by a bloody and violent war, and Croats were forced to take up arms and defend their newly independent country against a godless aggressor who raped, pillaged, burned, tortured, killed, did everything attempting to destroy our culture and make us forgotten. Although the aggressor was far superior in a military sense, we succeeded in saving our integrity, thanks to a fanatical determination, and I dare say, God's help.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatian_w ... dependence

After the war, we made a mistake - we stopped praying, we abandoned spirituality. That's when things started to go downhill. My opinion is that we just couldn't make shift to a situation in which we suddenly switched from a single-party system to democracy, and in which we finally governed ourselves. Furthermore, the transition from socialism to capitalism didn't go through too well and many big companies either went bankrupt or were sold. 16 years after the end of the war, our economy is still recovering from the recent recession, unemployment is high, administration efficiency is low. Croatia is expected to enter the EU in 2013, so many hope that this will solve our problems, but honestly I don't think much will change until we start to change ourselves for the better.

Now, back to B.W.'s original question about the spiritual condition - it's far from good. People alienated from each other, they became tense, grumpy, reserved, there is a collective lack of self-confidence going on because everyone wants to be someone who they can't afford to be, so it's not a rarity to see someone driving an expensive car, but having problems affording food. It's all about pretending, especially among the youth. People are afraid to open themselves up, because if they do it, you might find out that they're not as wealthy, successful and/or cool as they want you to think. This of course leads to an increased shallowness in interpersonal relationships. What's it like to be a young Christian around here? It's not easy, not because of the religion itself (92% of citizens consider themselves Christians) but rather because of the lifestyle you choose. It's hard to find a good church, and many people attend it only when someone in the family is baptized, married, or administering some other Catholic sacrament such as first communion (in primary school), or confirmation (in secondary school). Unfortunately, for many, the point of this is to use the opportunity to obtain an expensive present from distant family members who you don't often see. Another widespread phenomenon among the youth is single-mindedness - you're not expected to differ in any way from the bleak and monotonous surroundings, which lead many young people to binge drinking, obviously an attempt to escape the unpleasant reality - where people are antisocial, music is horrible, it's hard to find a good place to go out, you never have as much money as you need, and if the trends continue, you're unlikely to find a job even if you finish college. IMO, the reality is coloured in the shades of gray.

Some people in my surroundings, even some I know, would maybe disagree with my observations, that's why I'll point out that they're subjective, but at the same time, I tried my best to portray the situation as accurately as I could. I hope my post was useful. Have a nice day everyone.

Reactionary wrote: People alienated from each other, they became tense, grumpy, reserved, there is a collective lack of self-confidence going on because everyone wants to be someone who they can't afford to be, so it's not a rarity to see someone driving an expensive car, but having problems affording food. It's all about pretending, especially among the youth. People are afraid to open themselves up, because if they do it, you might find out that they're not as wealthy, successful and/or cool as they want you to think. This of course leads to an increased shallowness in interpersonal relationships.

Ouch. The above is a good description of what happens when a people abandon God and embrace materialism.

FL

Glasgow, Scotland here but pretty much the same as reported above in my experience.

There is a rather vibrant culture of protestantism vs Catholicism but that is more focused on football and the monarchy than it is based upon theological disagreements or church attendance. The Polish Catholic community here, which myself and my family were once an active part of was dwindling away but has recently seen real growth and a lot of younger members due to a lot of immigration. Much of the religious talk in Glasgow surrounds the sectarian divides which tie together football teams, views on the monarchy and Ireland, as well as the protestant/Catholic divide.

I do get a strong sense that most, Christian, Islamic and atheist/agnostic, I am aquatinted with view the American strain of Evangelical Christianity as comprised of mainly crazy people with little to no sense of humour.

There is one, maybe two, churches that have been converted to bars or some such within walking distance of my house but by far the majority are still functioning as places of worship. I have heard of separate congregations coming together, selling off more modern church buildings, to all keep a single large historic church going.

The pub just up the road from me, which is an old converted church bearing the name "The Church on the Hill":

Proinsias wrote:There is a rather vibrant culture of protestantism vs Catholicism but that is more focused on football and the monarchy than it is based upon theological disagreements or church attendance. The Polish Catholic community here, which myself and my family were once an active part of was dwindling away but has recently seen real growth and a lot of younger members due to a lot of immigration. Much of the religious talk in Glasgow surrounds the sectarian divides which tie together football teams, views on the monarchy and Ireland, as well as the protestant/Catholic divide.

Pretty much spot on in my experience up there. And of course the Celtic mob need all the support they can get

I do get a strong sense that most, Christian, Islamic and atheist/agnostic, I am aquatinted with view the American strain of Evangelical Christianity as comprised of mainly crazy people with little to no sense of humour.

For me, this is one of the biggest myths of the age. Evangelicalism is largely sane, vibrant and Gospel-driven. I suspect people have seen some television evangelists and, wouldn't you know it, tarnished the majority of American evangelicalism.

There is one, maybe two, churches that have been converted to bars or some such within walking distance of my house but by far the majority are still functioning as places of worship. I have heard of separate congregations coming together, selling off more modern church buildings, to all keep a single large historic church going.

The pub just up the road from me, which is an old converted church bearing the name "The Church on the Hill":

Pro, how do you do that picture thing?

For me, this is one of the biggest myths of the age. Evangelicalism is largely sane, vibrant and Gospel-driven. I suspect people have seen some television evangelists and, wouldn't you know it, tarnished the majority of American evangelicalism.

Yeah, evolution also seems to be generally accepted over here whereas there seems to be much more debate in the US. People seem to lump together Fred Phelps, the creationist museum and the most extreme of the tea party into a homogenous lump which best describes the religious views of an entire country.

The picture thing:

Try it with the pic above.

-Right clicking on the picture should bring up an option to 'copy image address' or something similar, select this.
-Paste the selection into your G&S post
-Highlight it and click the [ img ] tag just above the posting box. That's it. Post your reply.

If you quote my post upthread with the picture in it you should see the code for it showing.

The code should look something like this, without the extra spaces spaces :
[ img ] http:// www. theaddressoftheimage . jpg [ / img ]

Works with pretty much any image you see online, the picture above is hosted on the http://www.scotcities.com/cathcart/langside.htm webpage, if the content is not public - for example if you have own photo album online and have it set to private it can take a bit more jiggery pokery.

Another option is to upload pictures directly from your hard drive onto the God & Science forum via the upload attachment tab just below the posting area.

Click the upload attachment tab, click 'choose file' and pick a picture from your home computer, click add the file and something akin to the picture of the teacup below should happen when you preview the post. This method is handy but tends to have size restrictions, the pics on your computer may be too big for the board settings in which case you need a program to resize your pics.

Hope that's clearish

*slight edit for clarity

Proinsias wrote:Yeah, evolution also seems to be generally accepted over here whereas there seems to be much more debate in the US. People seem to lump together Fred Phelps, the creationist museum and the most extreme of the tea party into a homogenous lump which best describes the religious views of an entire country.

I think in America there are less suckers willing to accept without question Darwinian evolution. I'm astonished at the level of ignorance in this country. There's an element of secular-brainwash deeply rooted now. Religion demonised Dawkinsian-style because the philosophically brain-dead hold this bufoon up as an idle. I mean I could go on and on, but then it would be a rant.

The picture thing:

I undertood that, thanks mate. The worst thing is Gman taught me how to do this about a year and a half ago. I'm a complete technophobe, still getting used to light-switches

Interesting to hear the reports, I figured that a lot of it does depend on the area that you live in. I think the members here are testament to the fact that there is still faith in Europe... although it may still be dark spiritually.

You know, I'm part of an Evangelical church and I never "got" the anti-Evangelical thing at all. Maybe its because I interact with them a lot and don't have to rely on the media or televangelists to get news from them... but our church has people who most of the outside world would consider "normal people" if they got to know them. Farmers, nurses, construction workers, teachers... they're just regular people and I have never seen people around here target them as "crazies" or anything like that just because they're Evangelical. Maybe its different in the bigger city instead of smaller communities with a lot of country. I imagine its the same in Europe, that the countryside and smaller communities in general have, if not more a higher percentage of Christians, a less hostile environment with less pressure to give into the sort of mindless secular groupthink that's promoted so heavily in certain areas.

You know I'd just love to see revival in my lifetime. I feel like its inevitable since Christianity has such an upper hand intellectually and that young people who still value spiritual things MUST see how spiritually empty some of their beliefs are... and yet it isn't an intellectual issue. So we'll see, I think the work done by apologists in universities is a must for changing the culture, I think at least the group of younger people interested in philosophy/theology/apologetics has grown a good deal even in the few years that I've been paying attention.

Thanks everyone!

You give me Hope for those in Europe. Croatia sounds bleak and you all need prayer and support over there. How easy is it to get a bible/prayer study group going in Croatia?

How is it elsewhere – Asia – Australia? Even in the USA…
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Well i can only speak for my hometown in Australia and not on the whole country.
In recent years our church has gone from very few members to having 70 regular attendants now and we have a part time pastor.
Once that number hits 90 regular attendants we will be able to have our pastor go fulltime.
We have many outreach programs running with the local schools like a mentor program,breakfast club, basketball workshops and chaplians.
We also have our own adult basketball competition running and our club has 9 teams of male and 2 female.
Cockatoo mens shed has been running for a long time and in conjunction we have "God on tap" at the local pub where we get a chance to share what we believe with our secular friends.
It is a very secular society up here in the hills and it's wonderfull that we have so many secular people engaging with us through the programs that our church runs.
People are very community minded where i live and the church is apart of that community, they may not believe but they do respect that the church does good things in the community and is a vital resource for them.

Daniel

Just adding my bit.

Britain is a dangerously securlarised nation. The politically correct brigade is slowly destroying our Christian Heritage - Christian values are slowly being eroded - take such issues such as abortion and same sex marriages. As a teacher I can see first hand how the lack of Christian upbringing is damaging our children. Close to 50% in some primary classes come from broken homes or from large families where the mother just sleeps around and does not have any care for the damage she doing apart from getting her benefits. Selfish fathers who have no sense of responsibility. The amount of rudeness and disrespect I have to deal with day to day is staggering. Selfishness, greed and lack of grace here is overwhelming. I do not share the optimism that other posters here have. Britian is a nation drifting from God and are now starting to pay the consequeces.

And there are 2 pubs where I live that used to be churches.

Silvertusk.

B. W. wrote:Croatia sounds bleak and you all need prayer and support over there.

I agree, although the situation in the Western Europe seems more grave to me, having read other people's impressions. However, I'm afraid a similar destiny only awaits us in the future.

B. W. wrote:How easy is it to get a bible/prayer study group going in Croatia?

Hmmm... I guess it depends on the community. There seems to be some interest - the recent visit by the Pope attracted at least a hundred thousand mostly young people. Bible study groups are something that I first heard of here - Catholic communities (which make a vast majority), unfortunately, often rely too much on the RCC's teachings instead of the Scripture. Furthermore, most of them uncritically accept Darwinian evolution. Alternatively, non-Catholic churches are hard to find. Regardless, there are good communities, it's just that such are harder to find if you live in a bigger town.

Silvertusk wrote:Just adding my bit.

Britain is a dangerously securlarised nation. The politically correct brigade is slowly destroying our Christian Heritage - Christian values are slowly being eroded - take such issues such as abortion and same sex marriages. As a teacher I can see first hand how the lack of Christian upbringing is damaging our children. Close to 50% in some primary classes come from broken homes or from large families where the mother just sleeps around and does not have any care for the damage she doing apart from getting her benefits. Selfish fathers who have no sense of responsibility. The amount of rudeness and disrespect I have to deal with day to day is staggering. Selfishness, greed and lack of grace here is overwhelming. I do not share the optimism that other posters here have. Britian is a nation drifting from God and are now starting to pay the consequeces.

And there are 2 pubs where I live that used to be churches.

Silvertusk.

This is what I heard several people say about England -

Secularisms materialism = extreme selfishness

Bible is correct again - Love of many will grow cold...

But so you still see hope for a return to Christ? A fighting back?
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