Evidence for God from Science

Hey guys,

What do you guys think about books like Crazy Love and Not a Fan?

I've been reading Crazy Love and its reeeaaaally extreme. What I liked about it was at the beginning, the first couple chapters talked about the nature of God. That we shouldn't mindlessly approach Him, which I like. My faith before now has often been very disrespectful... just throwing up random prayers at God.. saying things I don't mean. Not really taking the maker of the world seriously. I'm moving into a more traditional mindset that rests with my Catholic roots. To be reverent, calm, fearful.

I liked that the book covered God's greatness that way.

But then it dove in to salvation.
The whole book was basically a guilt-fear salvation, saying that all 'in between' Christians are not really Christians at all. That they need to commit more to the FULLEST. That Christ NEVER tells us to do less than the most we can, and quoting passages where we will be denied for not giving our all to Christ.
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I read a few reviews that helped me out... pointing out other places in the Bible that assure us of Christ's salvation not matter what. After all, we alone cannot reach the standard He calls for. We can't! How far is far enough? To live in a shack? To run away from our government? I don't know..
I think Christ has to redeem us if we believe. We just can't do it on our own.
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What are your thoughts about faith and works and such?
And also, if we really are redeemed by our faith, and our works are just a response to that faith, why does Christ always give us the extreme for an example?
I find it a confusing mixed message. We are told in some places that our faith alone saves us, but Christ's words speak often about doing extreme works.
Any thoughts?

Thanks a lot and Happy Thanksgiving!
I'm thankful for my renewed drive to understand my faith and make God a part of my life.

I'm readying CL for the 2nd time. Parts of it, I'm fine with, but in the end Chan puts a burden on believers they can not live up to. He makes irrational and harsh judgments saying, "These people will not be in heaven." Reason being, they are lukewarm. In the same chapter (five I believe) he says, that ALL believers are lukewarm in some area, including himself. So, you won't be in heaven if you are lukewarm, but all believers are lukewarm. I don't see how Chan makes this contradiction in the same breath.

I think it is very dangerous to take a term used once in the bible and infer what Chan concludes. (Rev. 3:16) A use that is very symbolic, from a very symbolic book. One that is used to describe a group, not an individual. And, then to liberally apply this modern day individuals is poor division if not dangerous.

I expanded some of my thoughts on this and posted a note on my Facebook Account.

It ties here, so I'll just paste it.

And yes, it will offend some no doubt, but I've read Crazy Love and I agree there's some very good things in it, but overall I walked away from it feeling manipulated and guilted toward many things and I just didn't have a lot of peace in my heart after reading it.

The Bait and Switch Gospel

It's probably happened to you sometime. You've responded to an ad and showed up at the store advertising an amazing deal. You were sold when you saw the ad and now that you've arrived you're looking forward to making your purchase but then, everything seems to change. The sales person hears what you're there for and quickly informs you that that item really isn't what you need at all. There's so many things wrong with it that the store would be embarrassed for you to leave with such a poor quality item. What you need is this more expensive and fancy item over here and before you know it, if you don't know better, you've left owning something very different than what was advertised and which you had no intention of buying when you initially came it.

It happens all the time at Car Dealerships, Appliance Store and Churches.

That's right! I said it. It happens at churches.How does it happen there you might ask? I'm glad you asked that friend! (Hey?! Why am I starting to sound like a salesman myself?!?)

Seriously though, it does happen more frequently than you might imagine, even at good Bible believing churches and it's done by people who are well-intentioned, even if misguided or misdirected.I call it, "The Bait and Switch Gospel."

Salvation is by grace and grace alone. That's the foundation of any relationship with God through Christ. This is practically a mantra repeated many times over in many churches and it's printed right there in the creeds or statements of faith, and yet many find after they've responded to this message of grace that the tone changes and over time, it becomes clear that there's much more needed in their lives than "just grace." In fact, there may even be a subtle contempt for those "greasy gracers", "hypergracers" and "easy-believism proponents" (I've actually been called that and worse on many occasions). Sometimes that attitude may take on some terms of their own, designed to make clear that however important grace is as a theory, when it comes right down to it, there's so much more that you need to be doing (key-word there).

Works are the fruit, not the root of that relationship with God. There's a difference in scripture between when it speaks of salvation and when it speaks of the "Kingdom of God." The confusion comes when salvation is confused with the Kingdom. Salvation is relational and it's an all or nothing prospect. You're either saved or you are not. Anything else is like being "a little bit pregnant." It's just absurd on the face of it, and yet there's something in the heart of many that just doesn't want to let the "good news" be too good.

In the context of the Kingdom of God; that future order where Christ rules upon a renewed earth, there is indication that some will receive more reward than others and works in that regard may play in. Even then, however, Jesus made it clear that it wasn't enough to do works for their own sake. We have to find the source of them in the right motives which are to center on two things, the love of God and the love of others. Jesus told his disciples when James and John and their mother came to him asking for special favor in the kingdom (note ... not salvation) that they didn't understand what they were asking for and then Jesus then rebuked them that having the goal of lording power and position over others was not a worthy motive. That's what pagans do. Jesus then went on to in other contexts preach the beatitudes and show that the Kingdom of God in many ways, runs upside down in terms of how the world's systems work.

I find, usually, the people who focus the most upon works and who seems the most emotionally invested in making sure that this whole "grace thing doesn't go too far" are responding to what Paul referred to as the scandal or the offense of the Gospel. People who think deep down, or want to believe that they are more righteous or have worked harder than others, want to be sure that other people know it and that they're going to get what is fair and coming to them in the end. That whole attitude appears to a great degree to determine whether their works in the end are going to be wood, hay and stubble or gold, silver and precious jewels. The same type of works are going to be in each pile. It's our heart attitude, motivation and love for others that makes the difference as to their quality and endurance. The irony is, the people who worry the least about trying to earn things for God and who are just doing things from the love that their grace relationship gives way too, are the ones whose works appear to be of greater value to the God who sees beyond the exterior right into our heart.

So have you encountered this "Bait and Switch Gospel"? Have you bought into it? Having come to Christ by Grace are you now being directed to focus upon works that find their foundation in things often dressed up to look more appealing like legalism, self-sufficiency or even "Lordship Salvation"? Peel back the sticker. Peer in the windows. Kick the tires a few times, and then ask yourself if you're being encouraged to pay a premium for what God has already provided to you freely. Shake the tree and see if the works are in the roots or in the fruits.

I know what you mean by not feeling peaceful about it... I felt odd after reading parts of it.

I think my biggest objection is the uncertainty the book leaves me with. How much is enough? Does God simply examine my heart to see my intention?

I think Christ's salvation is a greater gift from God. To live assured of His grace saving us. How amazing!
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But can I ask, why are Christ's messages so deliberate? He's very direct when He gives commands.. to give up everything and follow.

I get mixed messages from the Bible. Some places tell of us we are saved by grace alone. Others (Christ's words) tell us we must become servants.
Which is correct? It's easy to feel like the Crazy Love viewpoint could be applicable. (Although I feel like it mixes up everything I knew about God before)

http://www.gotquestions.org/kingdom-of-God.html

http://www.gotquestions.org/kingdom-heaven-God.html

Yes Zach. There are differences of opinion and yes, as your articles illustrate along with past conversations with you, those who believe that salvation and the kingdom of God are the same tend to diminish grace and elevate works.

Canuckster1127 wrote:Yes Zach. There are differences of opinion and yes, as your articles illustrate along with past conversations with you, those who believe that salvation and the kingdom of God are the same tend to diminish grace and elevate works.

But if they are separate and distinct, then we ought to be able to delineate the boundaries. For example, is it possible for someone to attain salvation but not the kingdom of God? Is it possible for someone to inherit the kingdom of God but not be saved? Or do they always go hand-in-hand? If the latter, exactly what is the difference and what role do works play?