WBC

[Murray]

Do you think the WBC will inherit the kingdom of god?

Now the reason I ask this is because they seem to do so much harm to the lord and turn so many away, and also lead and destroy young ones into believing their filth. They commit idolatry, use the lords name in vain, turn others away from god, corrupt little ones, and I could continue this list.

Now the above are all sins correct? And Jesus lifts our sins away correct? But they refuse to change their ways, they kill thousands spiritually, corrupt thousands spiritually, and sin continually without any remorse or thought and justify their sins through hate.

It almost seems at some point god will condemn them unless they change....

I have extremely large issues with the WBC being a military child, perhaps that blinds my thought process, but it seems people so hateful, so filthy, so corrupt, cannot be my brothers in Christ and I do not consider them as such. They are in a sense spiritual serial killers, and they never repent, or acknowledge anything they do as wrong.

[Canuckster1127]

WBC is a sad example of what happens when Calvinism is extended to it's logical conclusions (hyper-calvinism) without being tempered by love or basic human decency. I will leave their judgement to God. Suffice it to say however, I wouldn't want to be have to stand and give an answer to God for how they've portrayed Christ to the world.

[Murray]

WBC is a sad example of what happens when Calvinism is extended to it's logical conclusions (hyper-calvinism) without being tempered by love or basic human decency. I will leave their judgement to God. Suffice it to say however, I wouldn't want to be have to stand and give an answer to God for how they've portrayed Christ to the world.

I feel like if anybody who actually understands the bible debates Fred Phillips, he would be tripping over his words in a second and eventually just start screaming about how your going to hell.

[cheezerrox]

This is an interesting question. I'm not sure there is really an answer, but I suppose it would depend on the person. I believe that the majority (the vast majority) of them will not, because they are still grown adult, mentally capable people, who choose to subscribe to a doctrine of hate and unacceptence. God knows their hearts. These people, being so far away from the love that is described in the Bible countless times, cannot be under the power of the Holy Spirit. It's much like Jesus says in Matthew 7:22-23, I believe. "Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

Now, does that mean there are any people who are a part of the church who wholeheartedly, genuinely, completely believe that they're doing the right thing, and that God is truly on their side? While I extremely doubt that that is possible, considering they practice so much sin and hate that is so contrary to the very Bible the claim to profess and the Spirit they claim to profess, I can't say that it's impossible. If there is someone who has been decieved enough among them to truly believe that what they are doing and believing is the truth and right, then like I said, God knows their hearts. He'll judge them according to their thoughts and intentions, I suppose. But, overrall, I sincerely doubt that any normal human being (especially one who's ever even heard of our Lord Jesus) could be a member of this church and believe them to be righteous. I don't believe we'll be seeing very many WBC members in the Kingdom at all, sadly.

[RickD]

WBC is a sad example of what happens when Calvinism is extended to it's logical conclusions (hyper-calvinism) without being tempered by love or basic human decency.

Bart, are you saying that Calvinism, in itself, taken to its logical conclusions, lacks love? Or, taking true Calvinism, then removing the love from Calvinism, leads to hyper-Calvinism, then ultimately, behavior, similar to the behavior exhibited by WBC?
The reason I ask, is because, for a while, I have associated Calvinism, with a very troubling, lack of love. Especially, a lack of love, for those thought to be unsaved.
Now, I'm not sure if I should be making a distinction between Calvinism, and hyper-Calvinism. I just don't know where to draw the line between the two. It just seems to me, that one melds into the other, in such a way that I can't really separate the two.

[August]

WBC is a sad example of what happens when Calvinism is extended to it's logical conclusions (hyper-calvinism) without being tempered by love or basic human decency.

Bart, are you saying that Calvinism, in itself, taken to its logical conclusions, lacks love? Or, taking true Calvinism, then removing the love from Calvinism, leads to hyper-Calvinism, then ultimately, behavior, similar to the behavior exhibited by WBC?
The reason I ask, is because, for a while, I have associated Calvinism, with a very troubling, lack of love. Especially, a lack of love, for those thought to be unsaved.
Now, I'm not sure if I should be making a distinction between Calvinism, and hyper-Calvinism. I just don't know where to draw the line between the two. It just seems to me, that one melds into the other, in such a way that I can't really separate the two.

On what do you guys base this?

[Canuckster1127]

Base what?

That WBC is hyper-calvinist? Just go to their website and see their statement of faith.

I do believe that hyper-calvinism is the logical conclusion that must be drawn in a purely logical context for the presuppositions upon which Calvinism rests.

I don't believe for a moment however that all Calvinists are that way or that there aren't Calvinists out there who are very loving people, both toward God and toward others. It almost at times seems to me to be a form of cognative dissonance that intellectually accepts the tenets of Calvinism but then in practice suspends them and adds an element of faith or mystery that allows them to act in manners that are different than the sterile logic of the systematic system they've bought into.

I'm fine with that too, by the way. The more I've learned about Calvinism both through reading and my own experiences in the midst of it, the more I've come to see for myself that I think it's locks itself in too rigidly on things, but I no doubt can be accused rightly of doing the same thing in some of my understandings and approaches. We do the best we can to intellectually summarize and take apart the engine so to speak to satisfy our curiosity for how the engine runs. Sometimes the more practical among us who just get in the car and drive get somewhere instead of just camping out in the garage with us mechanics .....

[DannyM]

Two questions:

What is hyper-Calvinism?

How does Calvinism, or hyper-Calvinism, logically lead one to possess a lack of love?

An ignorant Brit’s question:

Who are WBC?

[Canuckster1127]

Westboro Baptist Church, under Fred Phelps. I can't bring myself to include the link. Google it.

Hypercalvinism is an easily googled term too with plenty of resources (and differing views) as to what it means.

Hypercalvinism in effect almost becomes a fatalistic, stoic set of beliefs and practices that in effect sees that if God is ultimately the one who chooses and all the ends are determined anyway, then there's no need to witness or love others and instead we can simply celebrate God's will being accomplished in the condemnation of those rotten sinners.

Most Calvinists do not adopt that position. I may not agree with Calvinism (elements of it) but that doesn't mean I choose to demonize them.

I'm willing to consider making an exception to that general rule however when it comes to the behavior of Phelps and his "church" (really mostly family members). Sadly they garner a lot of media and poorly represent not just Calvinists but also Christians as a whole.

[DannyM]

Thanks Bart, I'll google them.

I've come across some Calvinists' views on fatalism, but am yet to sense any of the shocking attitude you describe. Should be an eye-opener googling WBC if they are openly teaching that.

I asked your view on hyper-Calvinism precisely because there are differing views on what hyper-Calvinism is. What better way to cut through the fog than to get the views of brother Canuckster1127? Thanks

[Proinsias]

The two Louis Theroux documentaries on the Westboro Baptist Church are interesting watching if you've got a spare hour or two:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmIr9P-vkSQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ticxD0GfewA

He spends a lot of time with them and most of them, maybe not Fred, seem to like him.

[DannyM]

Okay. I googled them. Couldn't connect to their own site. I remember watching a BBC programme where Louis Theroux made a documentary showing the family. It is one family, correct? Okay. I found out Phelps models himself on Calvinist theologian Jonathan Edwards.

http://www.apologeticsindex.org/111-wes ... ist-church

Phelps and his followers call themselves "primitive Baptists." They believe in predestination, the idea that God already has selected those who will go to heaven and that everyone else is irreversibly doomed to hell.

Their mission, members say, simply is to spread this news.

"We don't strive to change your hearts or minds," Phelps wrote in a letter to the Capital-Journal. "Even if we wanted to, we couldn't make you believe the truth.

"Every person who is predestined for hell will remain in darkness."

Okay. Lately I've been reading lots and lots of Calvin, and reading many Calvinists, and have never come across a Calvinist expressing the words "We don't strive to change your hearts or minds," or "Even if we wanted to, we couldn't make you believe the truth."

Can somebody please explain how this is a logical progression from calvinism? Let's examine this together. And remember, Calvinism is thoroughly biblical, so let's be careful here.

[RickD]

And remember, Calvinism is thoroughly biblical, so let's be careful here.

[DannyM]

I still cannot log in to their website - could somebody possibly give me a link?

[DannyM]

And remember, Calvinism is thoroughly biblical, so let's be careful here.

Damn straight. I'm itching to get into this. First impressions I have here is this Phelps crowd are some warped progression from Calvinism. It certianly is not logical. But let's wait and see...