Evidence for God from Science

I think a look @ the other side should be addressed as well so that we truly can make up our own minds. I'm currently undecided but seriously considering... have been in deep deep study and meditation for some time now. This is not a rebuttal... only a look at eternal security components. Feel free to compare with the Free Will: quotes only thread. This thread is meant to contain only quotes. I hope you understand. (I want to make up my own mind as well.)

DELETE THIS THREAD CAUSE I DON'T KNOW HOW OR WHERE TO...

zacchaeus wrote:I think a look @ the other side should be addressed as well so that we truly can make up our own minds. I'm currently undecided but seriously considering... have been in deep deep study and meditation for some time now. This is not a rebuttal... only a look at eternal security components. Feel free to compare with the Free Will: quotes only thread. This thread is meant to contain only quotes. I hope you understand. (I want to make up my own mind as well.)

I can only give you my opinion on this and it is that Eternal Security is not the same as Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS)

Again, my opinion only – is that OSAS is a extreme spin off of Eternal Security and is too far out of sync with Eternal Security two class the two together.

Eternal Security is promised in the bible from Jesus no less…

OSAS in my opinion is not promised…

Others may want to chime in here but that is the best I can do at the moment is to offer only my personal opinion on this matter and nothing else.
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Please feel free to elaborate... the gist is in both whatever the difference is (beyond me) that once your saved (truly saved, true belief, one time event, saving faith)... then no matter what you do (sin) your one of two things... which seem to contradict itself (my opinion)... 1) your still saved (forever) 2) you never truly were saved to begin with. Two being the scape goat clause how to justify (eternal security); never really being saved or you wouldn't do those things (sin). However, this isn't to discuss either at least not the doctrine. Please list scriptures pertaining to Eternal Security... like

Eph 1:13-14 and son on!!!

B. W. wrote:

zacchaeus wrote:I think a look @ the other side should be addressed as well so that we truly can make up our own minds. I'm currently undecided but seriously considering... have been in deep deep study and meditation for some time now. This is not a rebuttal... only a look at eternal security components. Feel free to compare with the Free Will: quotes only thread. This thread is meant to contain only quotes. I hope you understand. (I want to make up my own mind as well.)

I can only give you my opinion on this and it is that Eternal Security is not the same as Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS)

Again, my opinion only – is that OSAS is a extreme spin off of Eternal Security and is too far out of sync with Eternal Security two class the two together.

Eternal Security is promised in the bible from Jesus no less…

OSAS in my opinion is not promised…

Others may want to chime in here but that is the best I can do at the moment is to offer only my personal opinion on this matter and nothing else.
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Now that you mention it, B.W, the term OSAS, never really sat right with me. But I do see what you're saying about eternal security, being promised. Because there's no doubt, in my mind, about that.

Once Saved, Always Saved, has always seemed to me to be a term or concept that is lifted from Reformed Calvinism (of which part of the TULIP it refers to the P, or Perseverance of the Saints) but which doesn't include the whole package. Usually the T, Total Depravity, is included as a starting place but then it bypasses the ULI in whole or part to arrive at the conclusion of perseverance of the Saints without many other elements of Calvinism or Reformed Theology.

I'm not saying it's right or it's wrong. Just trying to explain what I see as at work, behind the scenes.

Once Saved, Always Saved, has always seemed to me to be a term or concept that is lifted from Reformed Calvinism (of which part of the TULIP it refers to the P, or Perseverance of the Saints) but which doesn't include the whole package.

That may explain why it didn't sit well with me.

Okay, I’ll attempt to explain what I mean about the difference between OSAS and Eternal Security but please understand my opinion some may find controversial and as such please remember this is my own view at this current 12-2011 date. If I can discover anything else that may help clarify, I’ll being more than willing to change.

Bart mention one reason why there is a difference between OSAS and Eternal Security(ES) and there is more than that. OSAS has taken ES out of context and spun off into areas it should not have. Let me first show you bible verses that suggest ES before trying to show how OSAS became unbalanced.

Jesus stated these things first in John 6:37, 38, 39, 40c and John 10:27, 28, 29, 30c concerning ES.

The principles of ES are further proclaimed in the Old Testament in these area that help explain Jesus comments more: Jeremiah 32:40, Psalms 37:28, Isaiah 45:17

The New Testament provides further clarification within these verses which support the principle found in Jeremiah 32:40 such as Jude 1:1, 24 – 1 John 2:25 – Hebrews 7:25 – Philippians 1:6 –
2 Corinthians 1:20, 21, 22 – Ephesians 1:13-14, and Ephesians 4:29-30c.

Summary: Nothing can snatch a real believer out of Christ hands because such are sealed by the Holy Spirit as a guarantee as well how the Lord promised to preserve his saints and promises this. Next as Romans 11:29 states, “For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.”

Add to this what Hebrews 6:17-19 states as well: “In the same way God, desiring even more to show to the heirs of the promise the unchangeableness of His purpose, interposed with an oath, 18 so that by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have taken refuge would have strong encouragement to take hold of the hope set before us. 19 This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, a hope both sure and steadfast and one which enters within the veil…” NKJV

Isaiah 55:9, 10, 11c and Isaiah 46:10 also tell us God does not renege on his word/promises either. That is why I state that ones salvation is eternally secure.

OSAS

OSAS does several things first… it can take these verses out of context, in such manner as to (put it simply) teach that a believer may continue to sin that grace abounds. It produces, in my opinion false converts as 1 John 2:19 states. Jesus maybe alluding to this in the Parable of the Sower in Luke 8:11-18 and Matthew 13:18-23c as well. A person can be falsely converted demonstrated by a lack of understanding, having no roots, pomp of the world easily carries such away – in other words they are not known by God. Yet, some may do big things in the Lord’s name as Matthew 7:21-23 speaks of.

OSAS can also become a self works oriented doctrine that a believer must dreadfully work hard by their own efforts alone to maintain his / her salvation just to prove they are saved. This is also not understanding the gospel of grace: God empowering us to simply say no to sin (Titus 2:11-15c) and if you fail, confess it as 1 John 1:9 states. Learn from it and eventually that particular sin will have no hold on you. OSAS can become forceful and not Graceful if that makes sense. In other word, OSAS, can be twisted into a very legalist works proving doctrine.

Also OSAS can lead to doctrines that make God show partiality, the very thing the bible reveals God will not do. OSAS can lead to intellectual snobbery and haughtiness, the very things the bible tells us not be toward our fellow Christians and the unsaved.

Eternal Security

Eternal Security rests alone on God’s Word, the Logos, Christ, the empowerment work of the Holy Spirit. ES does not separate the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit with Salvation. The two naturally flow together like water running off a ducks back. It works simply by helping true believers believe that they can know the Lord, personally, and they do. Slowly they come into understanding of the character and Nature of God, with a heartfelt change that naturally affects their own character as well: transformed.

ES rest on what the principle God spoke of in Jeremiah 31:3 (the NASB says it more accurately than the NET as, "The LORD appeared to him from afar, saying, "I have loved you with an everlasting love; Therefore I have drawn you with lovingkindness...") that God’s manner of drawing one unto himself is by his loving kindness – not irresistible compulsion. Irresistible compulsion leaves out how Jeremiah 9:24 describes the actions of God and would cause God to deny his own Character traits of faithfulness, fairness, and justice to himself first, then, demonstrated in his treatment of those whom he created as morally reasoning beings.

ES shares understanding with what John wrote in 1 John 4:9-10. ES produces love within us from God because He loved first: That His Love draws us to him, cementing our salvation (Romans 8:29, 38-39c) to him. Irresistible compulsion cements (and proves) partiality. God does not show partiality, this, the bible reveals plainly.

A convert to Christ may pass away moments after conversion and God knows the heart. God also knows the hearts of those who do not pass away so soon. These He transforms. Those he transforms often experience a roller coaster ride, up one moment, down the next, doubt here, hesitation the next, but through it all, they learn their salvation is Eternally Secure and rest in Him alone. God’s Love slowly grows within and affects their lives, and they do end up shining before they return home to be with the Lord.

Jeremiah 9:24, "If people want to boast, they should boast about this: They should boast that they understand and know me. They should boast that they know and understand that I, the Lord, act out of faithfulness, fairness, and justice in the earth and that I desire people to do these things,” says the Lord" NET

ES produces good lasting fruit…
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Now why couldn't you have said all that in the other ES thread we had a while back?

Very nice post Bryan.

Byblos wrote:Now why couldn't you have said all that in the other ES thread we had a while back?

Very nice post Bryan.

I think I tried but I am a bit older now
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Please answer...

Why is it when it comes to the many more scriptures on condition vs. ES that everyone is quick to say well you just have a lack of understanding? You need to know to whom this was written to, and why? Yet know one asks the same questions when they throw out ES scriptures?

We either choose to believe the Bible at face value (a consistent literal interpretation) or we choose to accept the allegorical position which allows to make scripture say anything we want it to. If we choose the latter, we can never be in truth, but will always abide in error (that is because of the subjectiveness of the allegorical position).

Is there anymore scriptures for ES... please list. There seems to be like quadruple the amount for conditional.

Currently Reading John and trust me you don't want to know the amount of questions and issues I have. I need to finish reading it and at least read it one more or two more times; my little study for mr. rick...

zacchaeus wrote:Please answer...

Why is it when it comes to the many more scriptures on condition vs. ES that everyone is quick to say well you just have a lack of understanding? You need to know to whom this was written to, and why? Yet know one asks the same questions when they throw out ES scriptures?

We either choose to believe the Bible at face value (a consistent literal interpretation) or we choose to accept the allegorical position which allows to make scripture say anything we want it to. If we choose the latter, we can never be in truth, but will always abide in error (that is because of the subjectiveness of the allegorical position).

Is there anymore scriptures for ES... please list. There seems to be like quadruple the amount for conditional.

Currently Reading John and trust me you don't want to know the amount of questions and issues I have. I need to finish reading it and at least read it one more or two more times; my little study for mr. rick...

Matthew 13:15 may hold a clue...

Next, please define what you mean by conditional for me?

Thanks...

Lastly, bible interprets bible. What may look like a contradiction needs the balance of both sides measured by God’s own Character. This helps avoid error. You will play tug of war a bit but God called us to reason with him.

Now if I am thinking what you mean by conditional and conditional verse are accepted only – you’ll end up with OSAS version that stray into works to prove ones salvation and the great work of this sort is to argue…and go wrongly convicting friends, neighbor, brothers, sister in Christ as heretics.

If you only use the ES scriptures only – you’ll end up with OSAS view that one can sin that grace may abound.

There is a balance but are people willing to look, or is their mind already made up?
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Well, I'm sorry but I'm simply not going to discuss the doctrinal differences here for we've already strayed away from the purpose of this thread. What your wanting to discuss is already in so many other thread posts; some that aren't specifically about but always wind up back on the same topic as this forum is trying to do. I grew up without a belief one way or the other... only in the last two years have I been taught and sat under conditional security. I'm trying to give eternal security a chance without a predetermined bias. I've spent numerous responses on thread defending conditional and refuting ES. This is not about that. I'd simply like someone to post a list of the scriptures they know of pertaining to Eternal security; I'd like a list off them all. I doubt one person knows of them all but collectively maybe we can get there. I'd like just scripture and no commentary. I want to read the Word and the Word alone. No influence, no opinion, no this is what I think, no bias, nothing but pure scripture. Thanks... I mean this is simple. Scripture only please.

zacchaeus wrote:Well, I'm sorry but I'm simply not going to discuss the doctrinal differences here for we've already strayed away from the purpose of this thread. What your wanting to discuss is already in so many other thread posts; some that aren't specifically about but always wind up back on the same topic as this forum is trying to do. I grew up without a belief one way or the other... only in the last two years have I been taught and sat under conditional security. I'm trying to give eternal security a chance without a predetermined bias. I've spent numerous responses on thread defending conditional and refuting ES. This is not about that. I'd simply like someone to post a list of the scriptures they know of pertaining to Eternal security; I'd like a list off them all. I doubt one person knows of them all but collectively maybe we can get there. I'd like just scripture and no commentary. I want to read the Word and the Word alone. No influence, no opinion, no this is what I think, no bias, nothing but pure scripture. Thanks... I mean this is simple. Scripture only please.

You might want to check the other Secured Salvation thread, many of the scriptures are referenced there.

Ok I give... and thanks byblos.



DELETE THIS THREAD, I DON'T KNOW HOW OR WHERE TO!!!

zacchaeus wrote:Well, I'm sorry but I'm simply not going to discuss the doctrinal differences here for we've already strayed away from the purpose of this thread. What your wanting to discuss is already in so many other thread posts; some that aren't specifically about but always wind up back on the same topic as this forum is trying to do. I grew up without a belief one way or the other... only in the last two years have I been taught and sat under conditional security. I'm trying to give eternal security a chance without a predetermined bias. I've spent numerous responses on thread defending conditional and refuting ES. This is not about that. I'd simply like someone to post a list of the scriptures they know of pertaining to Eternal security; I'd like a list off them all. I doubt one person knows of them all but collectively maybe we can get there. I'd like just scripture and no commentary. I want to read the Word and the Word alone. No influence, no opinion, no this is what I think, no bias, nothing but pure scripture. Thanks... I mean this is simple. Scripture only please.

Fair enough...

There are many more ES verses than I posted, I posted the clear cut ones that clearly say it. Even John 3:5-21 says it so does John 3:36. So does John 6:37, 39 say it as well as Eph 1:2-13 teaches ES. In fact all conditional security verses teach ES. ES bible verses actually outnumber conditional security (CS).

You cannot pull out of context conditional security verses and build only from them, you need, the others show ES to bring to light better understanding on this subject, even when counting the ones from Hebrews chapter six and ten. We as human beings can teach and share only so much - the Holy Spirit is our real teacher and often He uses a tug of war with our reason till we finaly see and have that Eureka, I see, I hear, moment!

I cannot do that for you brother as I think what you are looking for to other human beings alone for an answer. Review both ES and SC together and begin the Holy Spirit tug of war till you reach your own Eureka moment...
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