Evidence for God from Science

Not really sure where this would go but I guess this forum should do, since it has to do with abortion.

A group of people came to the University earlier this semester handing out these "180 Movie" documentaries by Ray Comfort. Since I seriously had never heard of him or his documentary, I went home and watched it. It's only 30 minutes or so, so I guess if you wanted to watch it before commenting it wouldn't be much, but in short Ray uses the Holocaust as an analogy to today's "abortion genocide" problem. It's on the main site here if you want to see it. I'm not trying to make this an abortion debate, but rather just a discussion of the movie itself.

Well, I guess to put it bluntly, I thought the film was a joke, a piece of trash, an utter waste of time, and a sad reminder of how a smooth talker can make anything sound appealing to the masses. Plus it comes to us straight from the mouth of "banana man" himself! Look it up haha...Now that I have your attention, my biggest concerns:

The entire Holocaust analogy is ludicrous. It's a pure attempt at emotional appeal and a simple distraction technique that draws the audience away from all of Comfort's lesser arguments and onto the horrible scenes of death and despair. The video starts with a really confusing series of interview clips where Ray finds a load of dumb people who don't know who Adolf Hitler was. It's sad that people aren't aware of world history, but it has nothing to do with the actual video. Seriously, he spends over a third of the video explaining how anti-Christian Hitler was and how horrible the Holocaust was. Then we get to the "good" part.

Ray then puts the audience and those on camera in the following situations: If you are in Nazi Germany and ordered to bury some Jews alive with a bulldozer, do you? How about if you are ordered to shoot them? He tricks them into saying that they value human life too much to do it, and that they would be better off dying than killing others. Oops. To summarize, Ray then spins a convoluted tale about how that situation is equivalent to allowing others to have an abortion. That our politicians who support the right to abortion are all just like Hitler, allowing innocent lives to be lost and that any civilian not petitioning for banning abortion is just like a German in Nazi Germany who let millions of Jews get slaughtered.

I have a huge problem with this analogy. First, how do you compare the organized, methodical, and hateful methods of murdering Jews in Nazi Germany to abortions? He claims abortion as the genocide of innocent unborn. Last I checked, no woman getting an abortion is secretly plotting to kill ALL the unborn. Hateful murder and abortion are not equal or anything close for that matter. Groups on campus do this all the time, equating abortion to the Holocaust, lynching of black people, ethnic cleansing in Africa, etc., complete with gruesome photos to make their point.

The whole argument makes up his whole point is raw shock value. There is no substance to his documentary except that he found a handful of really dumb strangers that he could trick into saying something that trapped them, then following it up with a trap question. All of that carefully veiled by the "and you're just like Hitler!" argument.

If anyone disagrees with that, bring it on. This video made me angry...I'm getting emotional just ranting like this, so I'll stop for now. Let me know if you found any legitimate argument in the 180 movie...because frankly I just found it idiotic.

Ivellious wrote:I have a huge problem with this analogy. First, how do you compare the organized, methodical, and hateful methods of murdering Jews in Nazi Germany to abortions? He claims abortion as the genocide of innocent unborn. Last I checked, no woman getting an abortion is secretly plotting to kill ALL the unborn. Hateful murder and abortion are not equal or anything close for that matter. Groups on campus do this all the time, equating abortion to the Holocaust, lynching of black people, ethnic cleansing in Africa, etc., complete with gruesome photos to make their point.

The whole argument makes up his whole point is raw shock value. There is no substance to his documentary except that he found a handful of really dumb strangers that he could trick into saying something that trapped them, then following it up with a trap question. All of that carefully veiled by the "and you're just like Hitler!" argument.

If anyone disagrees with that, bring it on. This video made me angry...I'm getting emotional just ranting like this, so I'll stop for now. Let me know if you found any legitimate argument in the 180 movie...because frankly I just found it idiotic.

He is not talking about the murderers but instead about the people who stand by and do nothing with or are accepting of legally sanctioned murder. In a sense we are kind of like the Germans instead of Hitler himself.

Ivellious wrote:Not really sure where this would go but I guess this forum should do, since it has to do with abortion.

A group of people came to the University earlier this semester handing out these "180 Movie" documentaries by Ray Comfort. Since I seriously had never heard of him or his documentary, I went home and watched it. It's only 30 minutes or so, so I guess if you wanted to watch it before commenting it wouldn't be much, but in short Ray uses the Holocaust as an analogy to today's "abortion genocide" problem. It's on the main site here if you want to see it. I'm not trying to make this an abortion debate, but rather just a discussion of the movie itself.

Well, I guess to put it bluntly, I thought the film was a joke, a piece of trash, an utter waste of time, and a sad reminder of how a smooth talker can make anything sound appealing to the masses. Plus it comes to us straight from the mouth of "banana man" himself! Look it up haha...Now that I have your attention, my biggest concerns:

The entire Holocaust analogy is ludicrous. It's a pure attempt at emotional appeal and a simple distraction technique that draws the audience away from all of Comfort's lesser arguments and onto the horrible scenes of death and despair. The video starts with a really confusing series of interview clips where Ray finds a load of dumb people who don't know who Adolf Hitler was. It's sad that people aren't aware of world history, but it has nothing to do with the actual video. Seriously, he spends over a third of the video explaining how anti-Christian Hitler was and how horrible the Holocaust was. Then we get to the "good" part.

Ray then puts the audience and those on camera in the following situations: If you are in Nazi Germany and ordered to bury some Jews alive with a bulldozer, do you? How about if you are ordered to shoot them? He tricks them into saying that they value human life too much to do it, and that they would be better off dying than killing others. Oops. To summarize, Ray then spins a convoluted tale about how that situation is equivalent to allowing others to have an abortion. That our politicians who support the right to abortion are all just like Hitler, allowing innocent lives to be lost and that any civilian not petitioning for banning abortion is just like a German in Nazi Germany who let millions of Jews get slaughtered.

I have a huge problem with this analogy. First, how do you compare the organized, methodical, and hateful methods of murdering Jews in Nazi Germany to abortions? He claims abortion as the genocide of innocent unborn. Last I checked, no woman getting an abortion is secretly plotting to kill ALL the unborn. Hateful murder and abortion are not equal or anything close for that matter. Groups on campus do this all the time, equating abortion to the Holocaust, lynching of black people, ethnic cleansing in Africa, etc., complete with gruesome photos to make their point.

The whole argument makes up his whole point is raw shock value. There is no substance to his documentary except that he found a handful of really dumb strangers that he could trick into saying something that trapped them, then following it up with a trap question. All of that carefully veiled by the "and you're just like Hitler!" argument.

If anyone disagrees with that, bring it on. This video made me angry...I'm getting emotional just ranting like this, so I'll stop for now. Let me know if you found any legitimate argument in the 180 movie...because frankly I just found it idiotic.

Ivellious, I found the video on the home site. I didn't know who Ray Comfort was either, until I saw the video. I thought the video was powerful. It got people to think. I don't think he was trying to trap anyone, into saying something. He got people to think about the similarities between the holocaust, and abortion. If you want a real eye opener, do a google search for "slavery and abortion similarities". While I knew of the similarities, I was still surprised to see how similar the two are. It just speaks to how we as a society, devalue human life.
As far as the gruesome photos, I think at times they have their place. We can be so desensitized, and stuck in our own little shell, that sometimes we need something to shock us out of our comfortable lives.

I have a huge problem with this analogy. First, how do you compare the organized, methodical, and hateful methods of murdering Jews in Nazi Germany to abortions? He claims abortion as the genocide of innocent unborn. Last I checked, no woman getting an abortion is secretly plotting to kill ALL the unborn. Hateful murder and abortion are not equal or anything close for that matter.

Uh, do you understand who Planned Parenthood is? I believe a business who plots to kill humans, isn't much different than the Nazis who plotted to kill humans. Think about it.

If anyone disagrees with that, bring it on. This video made me angry...I'm getting emotional just ranting like this, so I'll stop for now. Let me know if you found any legitimate argument in the 180 movie...because frankly I just found it idiotic.

So, if the producers of the video, can get some people to use their brains, and think about the implications of killing the unborn, who are our defenseless children, who we should be protecting, and loving, not killing, that makes you angry?

Since you brought up the banana man thing, I KNOW for fact, that you didn't review the film on your own. You sought out atheist, pro-abortion web sites to get your talking points from. Nice try.

If you think that by putting on lab coats and operating behind closed doors of 'clinics' sanatizes the atrocity of abortion for your acceptance, then, IMO, you are no different than the Germans who knowlingly stood by silent, as their Jewish neighbors were drug away to their torture and deaths.
You are right in that individual women may not be intent on killing, but there are many, i am convinced who will preserve legalized murder at any cost.

Bring it yourself.

jlay, no, I did not. To be honest I had never heard of Ray Comfort before the video, and afterward I did some searching on youtube for him, and obviously that's the first video that comes up. My friends and I have talked about the 180 movie before (my close ones anyway), so I admit their input was in this too. But to shock your world, among them are a Catholic, a Protestant, a Muslim, and an agnostic who was raised Catholic. And I'm not an atheist either. Just because I reference the fact that Ray Comfort made one of the most unintelligent statements in the history of the evolution debate doesn't mean I'm copy/pasting someone else's views.

For those pushing the Planned Parenthood Conspiracy Theory, I'm not going to really argue with you because it's a lost cause. Barring every level of government being infiltrated with PPFA backers, there is no way they could get away with profiting off of what they do (Maybe someone should go to the IRS and look at their tax documents as a non-profit organization). And that seems rather unlikely with most of the government being loaded with conservatives and anti-abortion politicians.

I still don't buy the loose and shaky comparison of the German citizens allowing the Holocaust to happen and allowing abortion to happen. In Nazi Germany, if you spoke out against the Nazis killing Jews, you died. End of story. Yes, some people were fooled by Hitler or simply were cowardly about it, but there wasn't much of a choice involved even for those who knew what the Nazis were doing. Those people who advocate for pro-choice values aren't doing so because they fear the repercussions of speaking out, it's because they genuinely believe in those rights.

As far as using shock value to win arguments, I never buy it. It has it's place in the tabloids and the internet, but if you have a serious argument to make, it's just a way to cover up your lack of arguments, really. Even if you draw a parallel to the Nazis and abortion, how does a bunch of film of dead Jews help anything? and as far as the dead baby pictures some websites use to show how awful abortion is and claim that they come from inside the clinics and abortion facilities...Those, my friend, are fake. If you want to argue that point in particular, go ahead, but those shock value pics are fake, which is even worse than the purely distracting ones because you are lying.

I'm cool with free thought, but again my point is that Ray uses shallow logic and veiled arguments to make his point...especially when the real point is sandwiched between a sob story from Nazi Germany in the beginning of the video and a preachy "you are all sinners go repent you fools" message.

I,
We have people coming out of PP, who are providing plenty of testimony as to its methods.

I still don't buy the loose and shaky comparison of the German citizens allowing the Holocaust to happen and allowing abortion to happen.

Fine, don't buy it. I assume you are pro-abortion, and I would hardly expect someone raised in a culture that has sanatized the destruction of the unborn into a medical procedure to be suddenly swayed by a video. This is the very reason I don't have a problem with shock. When a persons heart quits beating, it needs a violent shock to be brought back to life. In turn, i think the heart of many is dead regarding this issue, and needs a shock. I don't think Ray or anyone says that everything that happened regarding the holocoust is directly mirrored regarding abortion.

I would be bery wary of accusing others of shallow arguments. You make a huge logical fallacy in your OP. Rays mistake with the banana has no, and I repeat no bearing on the truth or falsehood of whether abortion is wrong. You are attacking the person and not the facts of the argument.

Even if you draw a parallel to the Nazis and abortion, how does a bunch of film of dead Jews help anything? and as far as the dead baby pictures some websites use to show how awful abortion is and claim that they come from inside the clinics and abortion facilities...Those, my friend, are fake.

I certainly don't rely on pictures to know how horrible the procedure is. Plus the groups I rely on, such as 40 days for life, do not use pictures. But just exactly what pictures are you referring to, and how do you know they are "fake?"

The pictures I'm referring to are the ones I see on billboards, in the demonstrations at my school, in other media...The ones that claim to come from the inside of an abortion clinic or of aborted fetuses are, almost 100% of the time, fake. My rationale being that no one, pro-choice or pro-life, can walk into an abortion clinic and snap photos of what goes on. This magical thing called "patient privacy" eliminates such a thing. Seriously, try going into one some time with a high-def camera asking to take the most gruesome and perfectly-lit pictures. You'll get laughed at, and for good reason. Someone argued that they got the pics by buying aborted fetuses and taking pictures of them....but you can't do that either, so I can't think of any way they could possibly get such pictures.

I'm not saying some PP clinics aren't failing to provide safe atmospheres and whatnot. A few recent examples show the need for better monitoring of such conditions. My only real problem is when people talk about how they all make huge money off of it, which again simply can't be true....they are a registered non-profit organization...they fill out taxes just like anyone else, and because they receive government funding those forms are even more closely scrutinized than corporations. No one is getting rich or the feds would shut them down.

And to be honest, I want PP to go away personally...the system they have in place has serious issues and a new program needs to be started to provide the same basic resources without these health and safety problems...but that's just my take.

And as far as attacking Ray, that was mostly a backhanded comedic bit...I'm not going to rip on him just for that. I do think he's a tool, and an act more than anything. His banana video shows that. I saw another video of him on some Christian tv show bashing evolution where he straight up lied about the concepts of evolution and he was just reading his lies off a script (I'll see if I can find the video)...I just don't respect him at all because from what I've seen he's just the act with a fun accent to get people to latch onto someone else's movement.

For as little as 100 bucks one can walk into any unscrupulous clinic (and there are many) and snap pictures to their heart's delight. It's not like these places are bound by any moral values of any kind.

That's a laugh Byblos. I seriously hope you don't believe that. It's not morals that stop you from doing that, it's the law. Those doctors and staff would be sued for millions and thrown in jail if they were bribed to let photographers in.

Ivellious wrote:That's a laugh Byblos. I seriously hope you don't believe that. It's not morals that stop you from doing that, it's the law. Those doctors and staff would be sued for millions and thrown in jail if they were bribed to let photographers in.

Do you really think I would say something like that if I didn't actually know it to be true?

The pictures I'm referring to are the ones I see on billboards, in the demonstrations at my school, in other media...The ones that claim to come from the inside of an abortion clinic or of aborted fetuses are, almost 100% of the time, fake. My rationale being that no one, pro-choice or pro-life, can walk into an abortion clinic and snap photos of what goes on.

OK, and how do you know they are fake?

Are you familiar with the movie Silent Scream? This was done by an abortion doctor who used an ultrasound to document the procedure. He had performed thousands of abortions. When he later watched the ultrasound, he was horrified. He immediately abandoned the practice and pledged to use this information to speak out against abortion. This is similar to the lady who recently left PP, who also watched an ultra-sound as an abortion was being performed.

Pictures are often taken for medical research. If you have any proof that pictures aren't legit, I'd love to see it.

I'm not saying some PP clinics aren't failing to provide safe atmospheres and whatnot. A few recent examples show the need for better monitoring of such conditions. My only real problem is when people talk about how they all make huge money off of it, which again simply can't be true....they are a registered non-profit organization...they fill out taxes just like anyone else, and because they receive government funding those forms are even more closely scrutinized than corporations. No one is getting rich or the feds would shut them down

I think you are being very naive about all 501c3 non-profits, and about our government weeding out corruption. PP is a huge organization, and is a pet favorite among many a Washington liberals. It is big business. One year PP took in $85 million in excess revenue. Nearly one third of its budget is from the tax payer. They have over 25,000 on staff. They perform over 300k abortions a year.

I saw it and liked it for the most part. Anything that gets people thinking is probably for the better. All too often people are just sleep-walking through life, trusting whatever their televisions and superiors say. Many people who have seen this video have completely turned away from being pro-abortion and are horrified they ever were. It does take a shock to the system sometimes to wake people up from their slumber.

To be honest I will not watch the video as I have a weak stomach when it comes to the murder of unborn children, but I can see many similarities between the holocaust and abortion.

First, how do you compare the organized, methodical, and hateful methods of murdering Jews in Nazi Germany to abortions?

The murder of the Jew's during world war two has many similarities with abortion, one of the biggest similarities is the indifference to the life that is being destroyed.
In Nazi Germany the soldiers were brain washed to believe that the people they were killing were not really human but were subhuman and it was no worse than killing an animal. When it comes to abortion we as a society have done the exact same thing, we have desensitized ourselves to the act of killing, we don't consider the child as human it is just a collection of cells and has no value.
As a person with Jewish heritage I am not offended by the analogy, in fact I feel the similarities are very disturbingly striking.

Dan

I don't think my problem is that particular point. You could argue that one. The problem in the analogy is the idea that the reasoning behind the holocaust (unbridled hate and demand for power) is nothing like that behind abortion. I completely disagree with the conspiracy that Planned Parenthood and Obama and every non-republican out there is some horrible neo-Hitler trying to commit genocide of the unborn race.

I mean, seriously, how the heck are Hitler and the Nazi leaders (who were forcing the holocaust using unstoppable military force to gain power and performing it out of hate for another race) at all applicable to those who advocate for abortion rights? No one is forcing abortion on anyone else in this country, the people are in no way being given a "get an abortion or die/or receive any punishment" choice like Ray Comfort seems to think, Obama and every other such politician isn't gaining an ounce of power or control out of it....and there is certainly no one who advocates for it because they want to eliminate the baby race. That's why the analogy is ridiculous and insulting. First, comparing anyone to Hitler these days is a problem unless it is seriously warranted, and the act of the holocaust and its cause are completely outside the realm of that for abortion in this country.

well since I am unwilling to view the show and can only comment on the similarity's between events and not what the show was portraying, i shall leave the debate.

Dan