Evidence for God from Science

Definition

Duwr- ball, circle,

Chuwg-to encircle, encompass, describe a circle, draw round, make a circle


Quick question why is Chuwg used to describe the sphere of the earth and not Duwr? Wouldn't "ball
" be a more appropriate term to describe a sphere rather than a circle?

Swimmy wrote:Definition

Duwr- ball, circle,

Chuwg-to encircle, encompass, describe a circle, draw round, make a circle


Quick question why is Chuwg used to describe the sphere of the earth and not Duwr? Wouldn't "ball
" be a more appropriate term to describe a sphere rather than a circle?

What verse, Swimmy?

Here is some copying I did around the internet.

Isaiah 40:22
הַיֹּשֵׁב֙ עַל־ ח֣וּג הָאָ֔רֶץ וְיֹשְׁבֶ֖יהָ כַּחֲגָבִ֑ים הַנֹּוטֶ֤ה כַדֹּק֙ שָׁמַ֔יִם וַיִּמְתָּחֵ֥ם כָּאֹ֖הֶל לָשָֽׁבֶת׃

חוג is ḥūḡ

Proverbs 8:27 also uses Chuwg.

עַל־פְּנֵ֥י תְהֹֽום׃ ח֝֗וּג בַּהֲכִינֹ֣ו מַיִם שָׁ֣ם אָ֑נִי בְּח֥וּקֹו

ח֝֗וּג is ḥūḡ,

Isaiah 22:18 uses Duwr.

צָנֹ֤וף יִצְנָפְךָ֙ צְנֵפָ֔ה כַּדּ֕וּר אֶל־אֶ֖רֶץ רַחֲבַ֣ת יָדָ֑יִם שָׁ֣מָּה תָמ֗וּת וְשָׁ֙מָּה֙ מַרְכְּבֹ֣ות כְּבֹודֶ֔ךָ קְלֹ֖ון בֵּ֥ית אֲדֹנֶֽיךָ׃

kad·dūr is כַּדּ֕וּר

Also in Isaiah 29:3

וְחָנִ֥יתִי כַדּ֖וּר עָלָ֑יִךְ וְצַרְתִּ֤י עָלַ֙יִךְ֙ מֻצָּ֔ב וַהֲקִֽימֹתִ֥י עָלַ֖יִךְ מְצֻרֹֽת׃

And Ezekiel 24:5

מִבְחַ֤ר הַצֹּאן֙ לָקֹ֔וחַ וְגַ֛ם דּ֥וּר הָעֲצָמִ֖ים תַּחְתֶּ֑יהָ רַתַּ֣ח רְתָחֶ֔יהָ גַּם־ בָּשְׁל֥וּ עֲצָמֶ֖יהָ בְּתֹוכָֽהּ׃ ס

דּ֥וּר is dūr


The hebrew probably does not help but at least the verses are here.

What verse, Swimmy

Actually some of the ones wrain mentioned. Are verses like Isaiah 40:22 suppose to infer spherical earth or a flat earth ? When the bible uses 'circle' or 'round' is it referring a flat circle or sphere?

If passages like Isaiah are meant to say the earth is spherical why does Isaiah 40:22 use chuwg instead of a more specific word for sphere like 'ball?'(Duwr)

I would prefer to think of any mention of the "circle of the earth" or "four corners" or a flat earth as just the impression of popular culture at the time, it is a myth that all people from the past believed the earth was flat. Educated people knew(the ancient greeks?) with certainty based on actual tests and experiments that the earth is round sphere, the same extremely basic experiments can still be performed without fail these days. It's kind of strange when people of way back when decided that it is a good idea to burn down libraries, Doesn't matter who is burning the knowledge, we all know learning and being curious and reasonable is best. Right?

The Bible never indicates a flat earth. Indeed, I do not believe the Bible ever uses a word for sphere. This includes Isaiah 22:17-18, where the word picture best fits a stone being wrapped in a sling and cast away. Skeptics of the Bible and its teachings have pointed to these verses, where most Bibles use ball to translate the Hebrew word dur. They then state that if the Bible was teaching a spherical earth, then it would have used this word.

I believe the Hebrew word dur is best translated here as a slingstone, not a ball. (See I Sam. 17:49-50, 25:29; Duet. 29:28; I Kings 9:7; Prov. 26:8; Jere. 7:15, 10:18, 16:13, 22:26-28). So, to say that the Bible never explicitly calls the planet earth a sphere is irrelevant. The idea that this planet is spherical is found in scripture (see #2).

I believe the text should read like this:
Isaiah 22:17-18
"The LORD will cast you afar, O man, and will surely wrap you up. He will whirl you around in a binding, as a stone [being cast], into a large and powerful land. There you will die…"

Some argue for a flat earth based on the mention of it having 4 corners.
4 Corners
Is. 11:12; Ezek. 7:2; Rev. 7:1, 20:8

A closer look at these and other passages shows that the Bible is not at all talking about the shape of the earth, much less a flat one.

4 Winds
Jere. 49:36 (see below); Ezek. 37:9; Dan. 7:2, 8:8, 11:4; Zech. 2:6; Matt. 24:31; Mark 13:27; Rev. 7:1 (see 4 corners)

The above are all just ways of describing the four directions (north, south, east, west). This had nothing to do with the shape of the earth. (Also see Gen. 28:14; 1 Chron. 9:24; Josh. 11:2-3; Ps. 107:3; Is. 43:5; Jere. 49:36; Ezek. 42:16-20; Zech. 14:4; Luke 13:29; Rev. 21:3)

Not only is the earth (planet) a circle (Prov. 8:27; Isa. 40:22), but the Bible tells us that the earth's horizon, "boundary of light and darkness," is curved (Job 26:10). These combine to give the picture of a sphere or at the least a hemisphere. Regardless, the Bible does not teach a flat earth.

dayage wrote:Some argue for a flat earth based on the mention of it having 4 corners.
4 Corners
Is. 11:12; Ezek. 7:2; Rev. 7:1, 20:8

A closer look at these and other passages shows that the Bible is not at all talking about the shape of the earth, much less a flat one.

4 Winds
Jere. 49:36 (see below); Ezek. 37:9; Dan. 7:2, 8:8, 11:4; Zech. 2:6; Matt. 24:31; Mark 13:27; Rev. 7:1 (see 4 corners)

The above are all just ways of describing the four directions (north, south, east, west). This had nothing to do with the shape of the earth. (Also see Gen. 28:14; 1 Chron. 9:24; Josh. 11:2-3; Ps. 107:3; Is. 43:5; Jere. 49:36; Ezek. 42:16-20; Zech. 14:4; Luke 13:29; Rev. 21:3)

Not only is the earth (planet) a circle (Prov. 8:27; Isa. 40:22), but the Bible tells us that the earth's horizon, "boundary of light and darkness," is curved (Job 26:10). These combine to give the picture of a sphere or at the least a hemisphere. Regardless, the Bible does not teach a flat earth.

Nicely researched dayage

Danieltwotwenty wrote:Not only is the earth (planet) a circle (Prov. 8:27; Isa. 40:22), but the Bible tells us that the earth's horizon, "boundary of light and darkness," is curved (Job 26:10). These combine to give the picture of a sphere or at the least a hemisphere. Regardless, the Bible does not teach a flat earth.

Where does it show that the boundary was curved?

wrain62 wrote:

Danieltwotwenty wrote:Not only is the earth (planet) a circle (Prov. 8:27; Isa. 40:22), but the Bible tells us that the earth's horizon, "boundary of light and darkness," is curved (Job 26:10). These combine to give the picture of a sphere or at the least a hemisphere. Regardless, the Bible does not teach a flat earth.

Where does it show that the boundary was curved?

I didn't write that.

dayage wrote:Some argue for a flat earth based on the mention of it having 4 corners.
4 Corners
Is. 11:12; Ezek. 7:2; Rev. 7:1, 20:8

A closer look at these and other passages shows that the Bible is not at all talking about the shape of the earth, much less a flat one.

4 Winds
Jere. 49:36 (see below); Ezek. 37:9; Dan. 7:2, 8:8, 11:4; Zech. 2:6; Matt. 24:31; Mark 13:27; Rev. 7:1 (see 4 corners)

The above are all just ways of describing the four directions (north, south, east, west). This had nothing to do with the shape of the earth. (Also see Gen. 28:14; 1 Chron. 9:24; Josh. 11:2-3; Ps. 107:3; Is. 43:5; Jere. 49:36; Ezek. 42:16-20; Zech. 14:4; Luke 13:29; Rev. 21:3)

Not only is the earth (planet) a circle (Prov. 8:27; Isa. 40:22), but the Bible tells us that the earth's horizon, "boundary of light and darkness," is curved (Job 26:10). These combine to give the picture of a sphere or at the least a hemisphere. Regardless, the Bible does not teach a flat earth.

This is where they pull out their other card once those arguments fail. They say its implying a flat circle with dome. That the Hebrews believed in a dome shaped earth like its neighbors.

dayage wrote:d.

I believe the Hebrew word dur is best translated here as a slingstone, not a ball. (See I Sam. 17:49-50, 25:29; Duet. 29:28; I Kings 9:7; Prov. 26:8; Jere. 7:15, 10:18, 16:13, 22:26-28). So, to say that the Bible never explicitly calls the planet earth a sphere is irrelevant. The idea that this planet is spherical is found in scripture (see #2).

I believe the text should read like this:
Isaiah 22:17-18
"The LORD will cast you afar, O man, and will surely wrap you up. He will whirl you around in a binding, as a stone [being cast], into a large and powerful land. There you will die…"

Do you have any source that can verify "duwr" is more so referencing a slingstone?

Also which translation are you using?


Bibles Studies tool has it defined as such

ball, circle, circle ball



He will surely violently turn and toss thee like a ball into a large country: there shalt thou die , and there the chariots of thy glory shall be the shame of thy lord's house.


Even with this translation it does sound like its referring to a projectile.

In Ezekiel 24:5 it is used as pile. I highlighted the word in my other post. To me the word dur has more of an amorphous connotation to its roundness, therefore it is unfitting to use it in describing the horizon of the Earth.

From the Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament
Hebrew(dur) heap up, pile, dwell
Ezekiel 24:5 "Take the choicest of the flock, And also pile wood under the pot. Make it boil vigorously. Also seethe its bones in it."
Psalm 84:10 "For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside. I would rather stand at the threshold of the house of my God, Than dwell in the tents of wickedness."

(dur) circle, ball
Isaiah 29:3 "And I will camp against you encircling you, And I will lay siege against you, And I will raise up battle towers against you."

(dor) generation

(medura) pile (of wood, etc.).
Ezekiel 24:9 'Therefore, thus says the Lord GOD, "Woe to the bloody city! I also shall make the pile great. 10 Heap on the wood, kindle the fire, boil the flesh well, and mix in the spices, and let the bones be burned."'

Aramaic
Daniel 2:38
(dur) dwell
Similar to Hebrew. The participle of such ayin-waw verbs regularly develops a medial aleph in BA: darin. For related nouns see dar "generation", medor, medar "dwelling", and tedira "continuance". The basic meaning of the root seems to be "move in a circle." Some early houses were circular. Generations recur in a cyclical fashion. The basic meaning may refer to dwell, which is a derived meaning indicating that which is circular, e.g. a heap.

AkkadianThe cognate Akkadian noun refers to a city wall, which in our thinking goes "round" the city.

Although, Hebrew resources include "ball" as a translation, I see no evidence to support this meaning. Neither its other Biblical uses nor its etymology, including comparing related languages, gives this meaning. In Biblical Hebrew, dur meant something that is circular, nor spherical. So the skeptic, who says that the Bible was inaccurate in describing earth's shape and argues that it should have used dur (meaning ball or sphere) to describe the earth, is just wrong.

Using passages describing the same type of context, I suggest two translations.

Base on verses like 1 Samuel 17:49-50, 25:29; Jeremiah 22:26, 28, I feel like the text is using the illustration of a stone being slung into another country.

Isaiah 22:17-18
17) "Behold (hinneh) the LORD (Yahweh) will cast you (matalatelaka) away (talatela), O man (gaber), and (waw) He will surely seize you (oteka, atoh)."
18) "He will whirl you around (sanwop, yisanapaka) in a binding (sanapa), as (ka) a stone (dur) [being cast], into (el) a land (eres) large (rahabat) and powerful (yadayim). There (shamma) you will die (tamut)…"

Based on Jeremiah 10:17-18, 46:19 and Ezekiel 12:3-13 it seems clear that bundling or bagging up your things was done when being exiled. So, I could also see it reading like this:

Isaiah 22:17-18
17) "Behold (hinneh) the LORD (Yahweh) will cast you (matalatelaka) away (talatela), O man (gaber), and (waw) He will surely seize you (oteka, atoh)."
18) "He will wrap you up (sanwop, yisanapaka) tightly (sanapa), as (ka) a bundle (dur) [to be cast], into (el) a land (eres) large (rahabat) and powerful (yadayim). There (shamma) you will die (tamut)…"

dayage wrote:From the Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament
Hebrew(dur) heap up, pile, dwell
Ezekiel 24:5 "Take the choicest of the flock, And also pile wood under the pot. Make it boil vigorously. Also seethe its bones in it."
Psalm 84:10 "For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside. I would rather stand at the threshold of the house of my God, Than dwell in the tents of wickedness."

(dur) circle, ball
Isaiah 29:3 "And I will camp against you encircling you, And I will lay siege against you, And I will raise up battle towers against you."

(dor) generation

(medura) pile (of wood, etc.).
Ezekiel 24:9 'Therefore, thus says the Lord GOD, "Woe to the bloody city! I also shall make the pile great. 10 Heap on the wood, kindle the fire, boil the flesh well, and mix in the spices, and let the bones be burned."'

Aramaic
Daniel 2:38
(dur) dwell
Similar to Hebrew. The participle of such ayin-waw verbs regularly develops a medial aleph in BA: darin. For related nouns see dar "generation", medor, medar "dwelling", and tedira "continuance". The basic meaning of the root seems to be "move in a circle." Some early houses were circular. Generations recur in a cyclical fashion. The basic meaning may refer to dwell, which is a derived meaning indicating that which is circular, e.g. a heap.

AkkadianThe cognate Akkadian noun refers to a city wall, which in our thinking goes "round" the city.

Although, Hebrew resources include "ball" as a translation, I see no evidence to support this meaning. Neither its other Biblical uses nor its etymology, including comparing related languages, gives this meaning. In Biblical Hebrew, dur meant something that is circular, nor spherical. So the skeptic, who says that the Bible was inaccurate in describing earth's shape and argues that it should have used dur (meaning ball or sphere) to describe the earth, is just wrong.

Using passages describing the same type of context, I suggest two translations.

Base on verses like 1 Samuel 17:49-50, 25:29; Jeremiah 22:26, 28, I feel like the text is using the illustration of a stone being slung into another country.

Isaiah 22:17-18
17) "Behold (hinneh) the LORD (Yahweh) will cast you (matalatelaka) away (talatela), O man (gaber), and (waw) He will surely seize you (oteka, atoh)."
18) "He will whirl you around (sanwop, yisanapaka) in a binding (sanapa), as (ka) a stone (dur) [being cast], into (el) a land (eres) large (rahabat) and powerful (yadayim). There (shamma) you will die (tamut)…"

Based on Jeremiah 10:17-18, 46:19 and Ezekiel 12:3-13 it seems clear that bundling or bagging up your things was done when being exiled. So, I could also see it reading like this:

Isaiah 22:17-18
17) "Behold (hinneh) the LORD (Yahweh) will cast you (matalatelaka) away (talatela), O man (gaber), and (waw) He will surely seize you (oteka, atoh)."
18) "He will wrap you up (sanwop, yisanapaka) tightly (sanapa), as (ka) a bundle (dur) [to be cast], into (el) a land (eres) large (rahabat) and powerful (yadayim). There (shamma) you will die (tamut)…"

Once again dayage you have produced a compelling argument, very interesting and good work.