Evidence for God from Science

Hi. I'll just give a little background about myself and why I'm asking this question.

I was a devote Christian in my teens. Then left the church Senior year and haven't been back since. I have since studied on my own, many world religions and more practically have practiced on my own with methods from Buddhism, Hinduism, Kaballah, Native American Shamans, Modern Psychology, Neuro linguistic programing, and use of psychedelic sacraments and astral projection and lucid dreaming. I have seen God on several occasions and have had a near death experience as well. I am not of any religion, and quite frankly my definition of GOD makes me more of an atheist to most people. I don't like religion, but I love what they have to offer to the honest seeker of the HIGHEST truth.

my discussions with Christians often ends like this. They tell me, "that's nice. We'll pray for you." and I'll probe deeper and I end up finding that they do not think that my way to God is valid, and that only their way is valid because the Bible says so. But I feel the other way too. I feel that Christianity is great for building local community, keeping kids out of trouble, develops ethical and moral behavior in it's members, but does nothing for the person who REALLY wants to KNOW and EXPERIENCE God. In order to put your soul on a rocket ship to visit and hang with God and to learn to become the Messiah yourself, there are so many methods available, and Jesus used them to become who he is.

First of all, the Bible does not say Jesus is the only way. It often says Jesus is the Best way, or a great way, or a way, but never the only way. The verse most often quoted, John 14:4 is so misread. But only because Christians have not taken a look at other Messiahs living amongst us today of other religions. Jesus taught in the Hindu tradition of Bakti Yoga, or loosely translated as devotional Yoga. Hundreds, if not thousands of Saints and Gurus (before and after Jesus) decide to go this route. Devotional yoga is simply this, I am the closest thing to God you will ever come across, worship me like a God, and you will get a sense of what God is like. And as you get familiar with that sense, drop me, and go straight to God himself. Use me as training wheels until you can do it yourself. And Jesus often spoke in this manor. And any student of Hinduism and Buddhism and Seikism knows that Jesus was just another saint who taught through Bakti Yoga. But because Christians get so caught up in the, “he’s the one and ONLY way” they never study under any other methods and don’t realize the bigger picture. There are many living Gurus today who have performed as many, if not more miracles than Jesus. I know some, and I have witnessed the miracles. And when I witnessed for myself, I asked myself, “if Jesus was alive today, and I saw him perform miracles, would I believe?” and the answer is “YES”. So then I must believe in the Gurus I have met and know that Jesus is just but One of the Many who have come to show us the way.

The First three commandments, 1. I am your God. 2. do not worship other Gods, 3. don't use my name in vain. These too are incredibly misread, simply because of the old christian Dogma.

My reading of it is this. God, the creator of all things can not possibly be a thing itself, because a thing is created and God is the creator. So all material things, all measurable things. All the things one can see and think and imagine, any thoughts, ideas, etc are all part of the material realm, which is created by God. Do not worship any created thing, any idols, any graven images, etc. That means all sorts of things, basically everything you can think of or imagine, or see, or hear, anything in this reality should not be worshiped like you worship God the creator. But that means also the bible, Jesus, Christianity, dogma, etc. These are all created things, which should take less importance than the creator, The creator can not have a will, or personality, or desires or judgment because those are all created things, and the creator does not have the attributes of created things. Jesus was created and also creates. I was created and also create. We are all in the image of God and have God in us and are performing God's work all the time. All material and immaterial things in the known universe are created by God and perform God's work all the time. That is the nature of our physical universe.

If someone tells me that my methods are incorrect and that only his book and his imaginary hero has the right method, then he is violating commandment number three. He is taking the lords name in vain, calling something God when it isn't at all.

God is the creative force, like gravity. You can not worship gravity. gravity does not care when you die that you did not worship it.

the Creative force is beyond language, beyond time, beyond dimensionality, beyond human ego and sensory perceptions. Any attempt at making it into a thing, a dogma, a set of rules to govern, is an attempt at population control and not at all a way to God.

So my question is this. I would like to know why you think the Christian God is the only way to God. Please speak from personal experience, and quote from the bible as little as possible. I'm not a biblical scholar and do not want to spend my time researching the pre-translated Aramaic and Latin versions to check translational errors.

So let me get this straight, you want me to defend my faith in Christ without referring to the book that was God's revelation to mankind?
I have experienced God everyday of every second of my life, while I may not have always realised his presence at the time he was always there working me towards a close personal relationship.
That is about as much as I would be able to tell you without referencing the Bible.


Dan

Danieltwotwenty wrote:So let me get this straight, you want me to defend my faith in Christ without referring to the book that was God's revelation to mankind?
I have experienced God everyday of every second of my life, while I may not have always realised his presence at the time he was always there working me towards a close personal relationship.
That is about as much as I would be able to tell you without referencing the Bible.


Dan

Thanks Dan. That's brilliant. Because that's how I feel too, I feel god every second of everyday, and I don't need the bible to tell me so. I know a lot of people who have god in their lives without the bible or Jesus. and I don't think there is a hell for people who do not claim Jesus as their savior.

I'm not saying don't quote the bible. But it's just easier for me to relate to when you don't. Because I'm not currently in a Christian community and am not up to date on my bible versus. And plus if you start quoting the bible, then I'll have to counter your quotes with more quotes and point out all the inconsistencies and how Christians pick and choose the versus that support their case. And this discussion will be side tracked by bible one-upmanship rather than sticking to the point.

So the question remains. Why do Christians think they are right and others not?

Hello buddhawarrior,

My name is Paul and I am as far as I know the only person here who is trained and specializes in the Christian apologetic field for counter cult. Specifically, I specialize in Eastern philosophy and religions. I would like to thank you and welcome you to the discussion board here. I happily and gladly would like to answer your questions and would like to discuss your claims.

I am glad to hear that you are very serious about truth and really do care what the truth is. With that in mind, I would like to assure you that I will not simply see you off with a "I'll pray for you" response. So, as long as you are serious about hearing the Christian claims that you seek and ask why it is that we believe it as the truth. I am as well just serious about hearing your claims and I do have inquiries as to what you believe is truth.

I just want to first give you a disclaimer. I certainly will and unfortunately have to respond in multiple posts. So, don't fret if theres something I haven't answered. I probably had to either save the lengthy explanation for later, feed my newborn, or step out and run some fatherly errands. So, please be patient with me. I really do want to get all the information to you.

I am relieved to hear that you feel immediately troubled that as Christians we believe we have exclusive truth, while you on the other hand believe you have the exclusive truth. This is instinctively and the one thing I hope you REALLY hang onto when this is all said and done. Either I am right about what THE truth IS, and you are wrong OR You are right about what THE truth is, and I am wrong. It is logically and practically impossible in reality that we are both right.

I can show you this with or without the bible.

At this point I would encourage you to visit the philosophy section of the discussion boards and you'll find the ongoing thread all about Truth and why it is not relative or plural.

A few quick quick examples that I have used before

2+2=4
The answer is EXCLUSIVELY 4. It cannot be 4 and 5 or any other number. Just 4. That's it, and anyone else who thinks otherwise is wrong.

The dog outside is either barking at the cat in the tree or he is not barking at the cat in the tree.
The dog cannot be in the state of barking and not barking at the cat at the same time and in the same sense. Reality reflects that only 1 proposition is exclusively true about the dog.

Let's go into religion shall we?
Judaism believes that Jesus Christ was not God, he died, and did not go to heaven.
Christianity believes that Jesus Christ was God, he died, rose from the dead, and go to heaven
Islam believes that Jesus Christ was the spirit of God, he didn't die, and went to heaven.

Only 1 can be right.

Eastern beliefs like Buddhism, Hinduism, and so forth aren't really religions. They are philosophies. However, as a philosophy, it has a very exclusive way of claiming what reality is, and that reality is completely different from the belief into the judeo christian God.

Your view is a view of Monism. An all is one view.

Our view is a view of dualism. A distinction between Creation and the Creator.

They do not in any way, shape, or aspect conform in some way or find any ground in which they both claim. Simply saying that Jesus was a Guru because you think he is based on your grade school understanding of the bible does not work. Your unwillingness to even want to hear quote from the bible because you believe some really bad game of telephone took place or some kind of translation issue really drives home my point I am about to make.

How is it even possible you even claim to know the REAL meaning behind the words of Jesus and at the same time state apathy and ignorance in regards to how the propositional content is there and derive your interpretation off that?

Is there a full manuscript of the bible in the Tibet mountains that we don't have, but you do? I would sure like to see it. I would love to hear a Guru give an exegesis from that manuscript.

I know you don't want to hear quotes from the bible, but you're unfortunately going to need to hear the critism of your claims on what the bible says. I am sure there is someone is would be willing to hold your hand with how it was translated into english.

You claim that Jesus never claimed to be the ONLY way to God. Its unfortunate that you are indeed wrong. Here's some quotes:

Jesus here eliminates pluralism

(NASB)Matthew 7:13-14
"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. [14] "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Here is an exclusive claim to his words
(NASB)Matthew 7:24, 26
"Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. [26] "Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.

Here is Jesus not saying he was a Guru. Here is him saying he IS God
(NASB)John 8:56-59
"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad." [57] So the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" [58] Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." [59] Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple.

Here is Jesus again forgiving sin because he could. He IS God. Guru's do not pardon sins.
(NASB)Luke 7:45-50
"You gave Me no kiss; but she, since the time I came in, has not ceased to kiss My feet. [46] "You did not anoint My head with oil, but she anointed My feet with perfume. [47] "For this reason I say to you, her sins, which are many, have been forgiven, for she loved much; but he who is forgiven little, loves little." [48] Then He said to her, "Your sins have been forgiven." [49] Those who were reclining at the table with Him began to say to themselves, "Who is this man who even forgives sins?" [50] And He said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."





Here is John, his disciple, letting you know that Jesus is the ONLY truth

(NASB)1 John 4:1-6
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. [2] By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; [3] and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world. [4] You are from God, little children, and have overcome them; because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world. [5] They are from the world; therefore they speak as from the world, and the world listens to them. [6] We are from God; he who knows God listens to us; he who is not from God does not listen to us By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

I will leave you with that, and directly address your idea of what God is.

You said that God isn't a thing. Things are created and he is the creator. You just proved DUALISM.
None or those commandments are violated. Jesus IS God. All God. All man.

What you are attempting to do is depersonalize God. Let's find the personal.

1. Everything that begins to exist has a cause either by its own nature or in an external cause
2. The universe began to exist
3. The universe has a cause

I pretty much eliminated your "cognition of the infinite". The infinite does does not exist as you understand. Your cognition of the infinite is a mechanism to simply make God whatever you want him to be. You can deduct anything from your infinite to get any answer you want. This is a fallacy of the nature of God.
God could be understood and we will deduct it right here.

As the uncaused first cause of all that exists. He must be omnipotent, omniscient, timeless, spaceless, immaterial, and so forth. It IS PERSONAL.

Your next claim that God is a creative force.
The creative force is beyond language?

Yet, here you are in language telling us what the creative force is.

Its beyond time, yet here you are telling is IN TIME that you know something out of time.
Its beyond dimension, yet here you are in the 3rd dimension telling us there isn't a dimension.
Its beyond your perception, yet here you are telling us you perceive it.

You pretty much have told us that you don't know anything.

I ask you, what is knowledge? How do you know what knowledge is? What is the criteria? Be prepared to work out in philosophy.

Buddhawarrior, as much as I would like to have a dialougue with you this post is a mess of contradictions.

You cannot in the same breath quote the bible to tell us why Christianity is wrong, and then go on to deny our ability to use the Bible to correct you. If you would like to give me a valid alternative reading of John 14:6 I'd be delighted.

You cannot in the same breath tell us you are not a biblical scholar, and then completely disregard the 2000 years of research done by people who were. You make many assertions about how we are mistaken, but obviously lack the credentials.

You cannot hold that Jesus was a guru and then go on to tell us he was a great teacher to show us the way. He was the worst teacher of all time if the billions who have believed him God were simply mistaken. The famous "trilemma" by cs lewis on Christ's divinity can easily be expanded to include guru, myth, or whatever absurd alternative critics would like to bring up.

So, in light of the rules you have set forth, I'd like a post discussing Jesus' lack of divinity without using any biblical or early church sources. Good luck.

Thank you both for stepping forward to take this on with me.

I too, might have to chop up my responses, due to fatherly duties, etc.

You've given me a lot of meat here, so i'll quote them and tackles them one at a time.

Before I start, I just want to clarify. I do not say that Jesus is wrong. Infact, I have a personal relationship with Jesus, but just not thru the Bible, or a Christian community.

In my experience, the many out of body, and near death experiences I had, that God is best described by Taoism. Taoism says that The Tao that can be named, is not the real Tao, the Tao that can be known is not the real Tao. And what that really says is that even though I have been there to be with God, I have absolutely no idea what it is. And I have heard many people who also had out of body experiences tell me the same thing. We can describe God in great detail, but come to the same conclusion, that our brains and human nervous system is simply not equipt to handle that experience.

If we are to have any discussion in philosophy I must first state that referencing the bible as fact because the bible says so is a basic logical fallacy, begging the question. And if are to use philosophy or Logic to deduce God, then the Bible has to be thrown out on fallacious grounds. But that does not mean the bible isn't a good and useful book, and has provided soul food for so many over vast time. But as a vehicle for producing Proof of an "EXCLUSIVE" God, it is awful.

I would also keep this discussion confined to a just one topic, whether or not Christians have the EXCLUSIVE way to God.

Please do not draw too many assumptions that are illogical, emotional or fallacious. I will do the same. I promise to keep this discussion civil and hopefully beneficial to all.

Hi Echoside, I will address your post first, since it is shorter.

Echoside wrote:You cannot in the same breath quote the bible to tell us why Christianity is wrong, and then go on to deny our ability to use the Bible to correct you. If you would like to give me a valid alternative reading of John 14:6 I'd be delighted.

Jesus taught in an ancient Hindu tradition called Bakti Yoga. Look it up on google. There’s much written about it. But briefly, Bakti yoga is roughly translated as Devotional Yoga. Where the Guru assumes the role of God. An incarnation, an avatar, a Bhagavan, a Bodhisattva. And allows followers to worship them as such. They talk as if they are God. It’s a two way street. I know it’s hard for a Christian to belief that there are any other living saints today who perform just as many if not more miracles than Jesus. But these saints not only exist, there are a plethora of them. Of course meeting one in your life time is difficult, but possible. I happen to have the great luck of having met a few. And because I did, I’m more than convinced that Jesus is just one of the many messiahs that have lived and taught.

Jesus said, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”

What he means, and often mean when he says “I” is the GOD within Me. So let’s replace the I and see how the meaning change.

“God within me is the way and the truth and the life, no one comes to God except through the God within.” Ah, much better. Makes perfect sense. That’s is in perfect alignment with the first three commandments.

I am not saying that Christianity is all wrong, I'm only saying that it is not an exclusive way. And that the bible, nor Jesus ever claimed that. It's the Ego of man that has built that Dogma into the religion and it is too bad.

Echoside wrote:You cannot in the same breath tell us you are not a biblical scholar, and then completely disregard the 2000 years of research done by people who were. You make many assertions about how we are mistaken, but obviously lack the credentials.

The bible was written some 300 years after the fact. Even with out modern day technologies and record keeping, can we trust the facts, verbatim, of any piece of history written today about something that happened 300 years ago? The discussion here is on such a minute level of scriptural detail, but the whole discussion can be moot if the bible is not a reliable source of written history. The Bible was also strung together by the council of Nicaea under the order of King Constantine for his political purpose. Of course details of Nicaea and what was included and not, and how much influence Constantine had and all that is up for debate, but just the very fact that the bible was put together by a group of people with some agenda needs to be considered.

Echoside wrote:You cannot hold that Jesus was a guru and then go on to tell us he was a great teacher to show us the way. He was the worst teacher of all time if the billions who have believed him God were simply mistaken. The famous "trilemma" by cs lewis on Christ's divinity can easily be expanded to include guru, myth, or whatever absurd alternative critics would like to bring up.

I would like you to clarify your definition of Guru. It seem you have a negative connotation to the word. My definition of Guru is anyone who teaches. A Teacher. There are many different methods of teaching. Some look a bit far out, walking around naked covered in ash, holding one arm up in the air for 35 years till it rots on the body, tying swords around ones penis (google kumbh mela, or watch this doc http://www.melafilms.com/. you might find it fascinating or just have a good laugh), but there are some Gurus that simply offer shelter and food to those who need it (my Guru/teacher Neem Karoli Baba).

Yes, I love Jesus, he has been my Guru for sometime and have taught me greatly. But again, the point here is that he never said he is the only way. Only Ego/Dogma of the Church says this.

Buddhawarrior,

As you start into this, I just want to make sure that you've read and understand the board purpose and the discussion guidleines for this board.

Several have entered in to engage with you and that's fine and as long as the conversation is on the high-ground and doesn't violate those two elements, it will be allowed to continue. Understand though that we don't exist to promote the beliefs you are championing and discussion for it's own sake will reach a point where it's no longer edifying and valuable to our board. We exist as well to engage with honest seekers and I hope that you will be open and consider as you discuss here that you have departed not just from Christianity (as you appear to differentiate) but also from Christ Himself.

I just want to be sure that there is no misunderstanding going into this.

bart

buddhawarrior wrote:
Jesus said, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”

What he means, and often mean when he says “I” is the GOD within Me. So let’s replace the I and see how the meaning change.

“God within me is the way and the truth and the life, no one comes to God except through the God within.” Ah, much better. Makes perfect sense. That’s is in perfect alignment with the first three commandments.

Buddhawarrior, i have no idea where you got this i mean you are reading this with your philosophy so much that you have to change the words to fit your philosophy. Also you keep referring to our beliefs as church dogmas yet you also align that because its a church dogma it is wrong and you haven't given any back up for that, not only that but there is a line of hypocrisy, you've just read that statement thru your philosophical dogmas - look i can do the same thing as you " What you just said isn't really how you read it since you read it through your philosophical dogmas". So bring reasons and arguments.

God bless!

buddhawarrior wrote:
The bible was written some 300 years after the fact. Even with out modern day technologies and record keeping, can we trust the facts, verbatim, of any piece of history written today about something that happened 300 years ago? The discussion here is on such a minute level of scriptural detail, but the whole discussion can be moot if the bible is not a reliable source of written history. The Bible was also strung together by the council of Nicaea under the order of King Constantine for his political purpose. Of course details of Nicaea and what was included and not, and how much influence Constantine had and all that is up for debate, but just the very fact that the bible was put together by a group of people with some agenda needs to be considered.

Sorry for double post.

Actually the bible was not written 300 years after the event, not sure who told you that, i think you mean compiled - the earliest ones were compiled together in the concil of nicaea. I might write about this more later on ( i need sleeep lol) but others on the board can and might before i wake up .

First of all, the Bible does not say Jesus is the only way. It often says Jesus is the Best way, or a great way, or a way, but never the only way.

Buddhawarrior, John 14:6 does say that Jesus is the only way. Your interpretation of John 14:6 certainly is inaccurate, and dishonest. Jesus is not one of many ways to the Father. Either, Jesus is the only way, as he says, or Jesus is a liar, and the biggest fraud in history. Either, one believes what the bible says, or doesn't. Are you really trying to fool yourself into believing the bible isn't saying what it says, just to fit into your beliefs? Can't you see how dishonest that looks? I'm certainly not trying to make you believe in the Jesus of the bible, but I'm not going to sit here and allow you to reword John 14:6, to fit what you believe.

While I don't necessarily agree with the specifics of Buddhawarrior, I kind of get his idea (I think). I think the real issue here is, can you be moral and spiritual and find God and go to heaven without accepting Jesus as God? I think the ultimate question here is whether the Jews and the Muslims and the Hindus and the Taoists and the ancestor-worshipers in Japan etc.etc. can possibly go to heaven. I think that is where lots of non-Christians take offense to other people who claim that they are inevitably screwed unless they drop their beliefs and dedicate their lives to Jesus.

Personally, I think God would accept anyone into heaven so long as they lived a good life, but I understand that my perspective isn't really accepted here haha...