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Thoughts on Heaven and Hell
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 10:12 pm
by candleguy
My apologies if this subject has been done to death (ba da bump) but for a person of wavering faith, bordering on agnostic, such as myself its one of these issues that always comes to mind:
Heaven: An eternal paradise sounds fantastic, however under the assumption that we maintain ourselves (or ego) in the transition to heaven, than its not hard to argue that it regulates our lives here on earth as a mere propping station for the next stop. Does anyone else ever feel like it make this lifetime appear a less meaningful?
Sometimes I feel like the concept of heaven enables Christians or other religious people who are living for the future/afterlife and missing out on the present.
Hell: The punishment fitting the crime. It is very hard for me to reconcile the idea that a good caring or generally upstanding atheist/agnostic/other religion will face the same punishment as a Hitler/Stalin/name your mass murder. I understand the concept in theory both categories are turning away from God or Christianity (in the regards to Muslims or Judaism) But one category of sinner is also inflicting immeasurable amounts of suffering to others around them. The balance of scales are not objectively equal, under these parameters Ghandi would standing in line right behind Pol Pot.
I understand there is an article in this site the promotes the idea that the God's law is justifiably not fair. I'm not sure if If agree with that reasoning.
Re: Thoughts on Heaven and Hell
Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 8:45 am
by jlay
Questions:
1. Define good. Be specific.
2. Why do you feel that Hell will be equal for all condemned to it?
Does anyone else ever feel like it make this lifetime appear a less meaningful?
Depends. Self centered pursuits should seem less meaningful to the believer. (Read Ecclesiastes) However, Christ said He had come that they would have life more abundantly. It is easy for us to ascribe our own ideas of abundant. But, I would say a life compelled by the Spirit is anything but meaningless. If you think that Heaven is simply your reward for picking the right team, then I would say you have the whole thing wrong, and therefore I'm not surprised by "waivering faith" as you put it.
God's judgment is not fair. God made Him who knew no sin to be sin for you. If God were fair then I suppose we'd all be in that line.
Re: Thoughts on Heaven and Hell
Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 7:26 pm
by Glen
jlay wrote:Questions:
1. Define good. Be specific.
2. Why do you feel that Hell will be equal for all condemned to it?
Does anyone else ever feel like it make this lifetime appear a less meaningful?
Depends. Self centered pursuits should seem less meaningful to the believer. (Read Ecclesiastes) However, Christ said He had come that they would have life more abundantly. It is easy for us to ascribe our own ideas of abundant. But, I would say a life compelled by the Spirit is anything but meaningless. If you think that Heaven is simply your reward for picking the right team, then I would say you have the whole thing wrong, and therefore I'm not surprised by "waivering faith" as you put it.
God's judgment is not fair. God made Him who knew no sin to be sin for you. If God were fair then I suppose we'd all be in that line.
Only not fair if it was against his will, seeing he laid it down it was an act of Love. Theologies god isn't fair agree.
Re: Thoughts on Heaven and Hell
Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 1:41 pm
by MarcusOfLycia
Glen wrote:Theologies god isn't fair agree.
What do you mean when you say this?
(Theology = Study of Who God Is)
Re: Thoughts on Heaven and Hell
Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 10:19 pm
by Glen
MarcusOfLycia wrote:Glen wrote:Theologies god isn't fair agree.
What do you mean when you say this?
(Theology = Study of Who God Is)
Mans theologies have made Luke 1:37 an impossiblity.
Re: Thoughts on Heaven and Hell
Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 4:52 pm
by MarcusOfLycia
Glen wrote:MarcusOfLycia wrote:Glen wrote:Theologies god isn't fair agree.
What do you mean when you say this?
(Theology = Study of Who God Is)
Mans theologies have made Luke 1:37 an impossiblity.
Do you mean to say that you:
1. Think any theology is bad.
2. Think a particular theology is bad.
Re: Thoughts on Heaven and Hell
Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 10:44 am
by Glen
MarcusOfLycia wrote:Glen wrote:MarcusOfLycia wrote:Glen wrote:Theologies god isn't fair agree.
What do you mean when you say this?
(Theology = Study of Who God Is)
Mans theologies have made Luke 1:37 an impossiblity.
Do you mean to say that you:
1. Think any theology is bad.
2. Think a particular theology is bad.
Any that don't bow to Romans 11:33-35, or teach against "His Will, and Desire for all men" 1Tim 2:3-6, or His Sovereignty as potter over all the clay Romans 9:20-21, but also inlight of a future restoration of the vessels of dishonor Romans 11:25-32, which points back to His will and Desire 1Tim 2:3-6, 4:10.
Re: Thoughts on Heaven and Hell
Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 10:30 am
by B. W.
It is easy to construe bible verses together in a systematic scholastic fashion that ignores context and continuity of scriptures. Bible interprets bible. The verses you used, Glen, do not jive with what Jesus said in John 3:16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 36 or Matthew 25:41, 46, or Revelation 20:11, 12, 13, 14, 15.
Therefore the explanations of UR you pose from the verses you cited are in error. Also it is impossible for God to lie and to claim from Luke 1:37 that nothing is impossible with God does not account for what is stated in Hebrews 6:18. For UR uses of Luke 1:37 to be true, then God must lie also. Add to this the statement in 2 Timothy 2:13, “...He cannot deny Himself,” (NASB) would also be a contradiction.
Therefore, the statement in Luke 1:37 regarding the statement made to Marry, in context, refer to the virgin birth not being impossible with God meaning this: God manifested in the Flesh – the second person of the divine Trinity of One eternal God coming in human flesh is not impossible.
The manner of salvation is only made to those in this life, not the hereafter, as Jesus explain clearly in John 3:1-21 and John 5:24, John 6:40, 47 and explain by Paul in Ephesians 2:8, 9, 10 as well. Eternity seals the deal. As a dog returns to its own vomit, so a fool to his folly is true for those in eternity s well. What’s to stop an eternal being from manipulating the love of God over and over again?
Only in this mortal life one can be sealed by the Holy Spirit to thwart rebellion in one’s eternal state – not in the next. You may think God’s love can, but such love of God will not force any person that denies Him to change if they do not want to change. Actual love of God behaves justly, respecting what one chooses, and granting them what their heart is set upon – sin and rebellion against God, in a place that is contained, forever and ever.
UR attempts to manipulate this kind of great Love of God by pitting the characteristics God’s own love against God’s own love. It demands that God must let all into heaven in a manner that is unjust to God’s own nature and character of love. That is called rebellion and the classical tactic of evil to look good before striking one with its venom of addiction to live a life tempting and testing God. Are you not so doing this, Glen?
Again, for UR to be true there was no need for Jesus to come into the world since the bible describes him as the Lamb of God slain before the foundation of the world. If slain before the foundation of the world to save all humanity anyways, there would be no need for him to come and do the work on that old rugged cross since according to UR (Universal Redemption) after life salvation is possible so that one can live any old way they like and – thus can get away with it.
Glen, if you are of the UR system that states that God purifies through a fiery bath of suffering in the afterlife and that Jesus only came to save people from that torturous bath, then the UR argument that UR adherents use that state that they cannot except a God at all who tortures at all is in contradiction with its own doctorial creeds.
It is an act of love to offer, and then respect a person’s decision, not to violate it. If one turns to Christ Jesus and believes in him – that person will be saved from a justified eternal wrath. If they reject it, they will eternally reap what they have sown. You are walking a dangerous path Glen, especially if you are leading others down the road you trod. Now is the time and day of your salvation. Will you make that choice and repent?
Surrender to Christ as wholly his prisoner? Surrender your ideas of what is right for God to do based on your human perspective of rightness? God is not mocked – the stances of UR and its offshoots does just that – mockingly attempts to manipulate the love of God to cause God to deny himself as well as lie against His truth, His justice, His righteousness, yes, His own love...
You still have time but how long will that time last? Do not delay…
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Re: Thoughts on Heaven and Hell
Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 4:31 pm
by Glen
It is easy to construe bible verses together in a systematic scholastic fashion that ignores context and continuity of scriptures. Bible interprets bible. The verses you used, Glen, do not jive with what Jesus said in John 3:16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 36 or Matthew 25:41, 46, or Revelation 20:11, 12, 13, 14, 15.
The first part of Christ mission was to his brethern in the flesh, Matthew 15:24 as a minister of and to the circumcision Romans 15:8, the stated goal was to save His people from their sins Matthew 1:21, Luke 9:56, Isaiah 42:6, the cross also dealt with adams sons before the law came into world Romans 5:12-14.
The work among his brethern concerning the flesh was cut short with only the remnant saved at that time Romans 9:27-28, but they were not cast away Romans 11:7-16, with a promise to save the whole lump Romans 11:16 and 25-32. The context, continuity as you claim is important and the people being spoken to in Matthew or Revelation isn't the heavenly one new man Ephesians 3:9, 2:4-8, muchless the same doctrine or hope Matthew 24:13 goes with Revelation 2:26, 3:21, Matthew 25:31, and concerns them enduring to live in their prophetic kingdom when its restored through Jacobs trouble in the Day of the Lord Luke 21:24, Romans 11:27, Ezekiel 36, Jere 31, Joel 3, etc....., and isn't doctrine in this age of grace that concerns Ephesians 1:3-4, not Romans 15:27. Those so called churches in Revelations were Jewish synagogue's in Asia and were the enemies of Pauls gospel of grace Romans 11:28, Acts 21:27, 2Tim 1:15, etc...
So I have my doubts as to your ability to seperate and discern much past your worship of mans theologies, or tradistions, Romans 11:33-35 is still true concerning Gods ways which you haven't been able to see the difference in much yet, which is it law or grace, condemnation of redemption, replacement theology or discernment of Gods hidden purpose for the one new mans etc..................you seem to be like waldo your every where, one minute your the Royal Nations, the next a partaking Gentile, or maybe the new creation kept hid, its just hard to pin you down isn't it.
I advise you to put aside your self righteousness and lean on Gods grace, and receive His gift of faith not of yourself, so you can rest in that security, and be in His Will and Desire as the Soverign Creator, and the Potter of all the clay concerning His plan and eternal purpose, Jeremiah 18:6,7, 31:37, if He will restore Israel after all they did Ezekiel 36:31-33, he will also restore all of adams sons 1Tim 2:3-6.
So yes all things are possible with God Luke 18:26-27, so I plead quilty for thinking it is.
Re: Thoughts on Heaven and Hell
Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 4:34 pm
by Glen
Glen wrote:It is easy to construe bible verses together in a systematic scholastic fashion that ignores context and continuity of scriptures. Bible interprets bible. The verses you used, Glen, do not jive with what Jesus said in John 3:16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 36 or Matthew 25:41, 46, or Revelation 20:11, 12, 13, 14, 15.
The first part of Christ mission was to his brethern in the flesh, Matthew 15:24 as a minister of and to the circumcision Romans 15:8, the stated goal was to save His people from their sins Matthew 1:21, Luke 9:56, Isaiah 42:6, the cross also dealt with adams sons before the law came into world Romans 5:12-14.
The work among his brethern concerning the flesh was cut short with only the remnant saved at that time Romans 9:27-28, but they were not cast away Romans 11:7-16, with a promise to save the whole lump Romans 11:16 and 25-32. The context, continuity as you claim is important and the people being spoken to in Matthew or Revelation isn't the heavenly one new man Ephesians 3:9, 2:4-8, muchless the same doctrine or hope Matthew 24:13 goes with Revelation 2:26, 3:21, Matthew 25:31, and concerns them enduring to live in their prophetic kingdom when its restored through Jacobs trouble in the Day of the Lord Luke 21:24, Romans 11:27, Ezekiel 36, Jere 31, Joel 3, etc....., and isn't doctrine in this age of grace that concerns Ephesians 1:3-4, not Romans 15:27. Those so called churches in Revelations were Jewish synagogue's in Asia and were the enemies of Pauls gospel of grace Romans 11:28, Acts 21:27, 2Tim 1:15, etc...
So I have my doubts as to your ability to seperate and discern much past your worship of mans theologies, or tradistions, Romans 11:33-35 is still true concerning Gods ways which you haven't been able to see the difference in much yet, which is it law or grace, condemnation of redemption, replacement theology or discernment of Gods hidden purpose for the one new mans etc..................you seem to be like waldo your every where, one minute your the Royal Nation, the next a partaking Gentile, or maybe the new creation kept hid, its just hard to pin you down isn't it.
I advise you to put aside your self righteousness and lean on Gods grace, and receive His gift of faith not of yourself, so you can rest in that security, and be in His Will and Desire as the Soverign Creator, and the Potter of all the clay concerning His plan and eternal purpose, Jeremiah 18:6,7, 31:37, if He will restore Israel after all they did Ezekiel 36:31-33, he will also restore all of adams sons 1Tim 2:3-6.
So yes all things are possible with God Luke 18:26-27, so I plead quilty for thinking it is.
Re: Thoughts on Heaven and Hell
Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 4:36 pm
by Glen
Glen wrote:Glen wrote:It is easy to construe bible verses together in a systematic scholastic fashion that ignores context and continuity of scriptures. Bible interprets bible. The verses you used, Glen, do not jive with what Jesus said in John 3:16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 36 or Matthew 25:41, 46, or Revelation 20:11, 12, 13, 14, 15.
The first part of Christ mission was to his brethern in the flesh, Matthew 15:24 as a minister of and to the circumcision Romans 15:8, the stated goal was to save His people from their sins Matthew 1:21, Luke 9:56, Isaiah 42:6, the cross also dealt with adams sons before the law came into world Romans 5:12-14.
The work among his brethern concerning the flesh was cut short with only the remnant saved at that time Romans 9:27-28, but they were not cast away Romans 11:7-16, with a promise to save the whole lump Romans 11:16 and 25-32. The context, continuity as you claim is important and the people being spoken to in Matthew or Revelation isn't the heavenly one new man Ephesians 3:9, 2:4-8, muchless the same doctrine or hope Matthew 24:13 goes with Revelation 2:26, 3:21, Matthew 25:31, and concerns them enduring to live in their prophetic kingdom when its restored through Jacobs trouble in the Day of the Lord Luke 21:24, Romans 11:27, Ezekiel 36, Jere 31, Joel 3, etc....., and isn't doctrine in this age of grace that concerns Ephesians 1:3-4, not Romans 15:27. Those so called churches in Revelations were Jewish synagogue's in Asia and were the enemies of Pauls gospel of grace Romans 11:28, Acts 21:27, 2Tim 1:15, etc...
So I have my doubts as to your ability to seperate and discern much past your worship of mans theologies, or tradistions, Romans 11:33-35 is still true concerning Gods ways which you haven't been able to see the difference in much yet, which is it law or grace, condemnation of redemption, replacement theology or discernment of Gods hidden purpose for the one new man etc..................you seem to be like waldo your every where, one minute your the Royal Nation, the next a partaking Gentile, or maybe the new creation kept hid, its just hard to pin you down isn't it.
I advise you to put aside your self righteousness and lean on Gods grace, and receive His gift of faith not of yourself, so you can rest in that security, and be in His Will and Desire as the Soverign Creator, and the Potter of all the clay concerning His plan and eternal purpose, Jeremiah 18:6,7, 31:37, if He will restore Israel after all they did Ezekiel 36:31-33, he will also restore all of adams sons 1Tim 2:3-6.
So yes all things are possible with God Luke 18:26-27, so I plead quilty for thinking it is.
Re: Thoughts on Heaven and Hell
Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 5:57 am
by domokunrox
You know. I got a really simple answer.
God's judgement is fair and just. His judgement will be perfect.
Re: Thoughts on Heaven and Hell
Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 7:22 am
by jlay
Any that don't bow to Romans 11:33-35, or teach against "His Will, and Desire for all men" 1Tim 2:3-6, or His Sovereignty as potter over all the clay Romans 9:20-21, but also inlight of a future restoration of the vessels of dishonor Romans 11:25-32, which points back to His will and Desire 1Tim 2:3-6, 4:10.
Isn't this a theology? I would certainly agree that man has used his theology to shape the scriptures, instead of having his theology shaped by them.
Glen, I am personally leaning toward a hermaneutic of humility. When you come into the forum and start questioning one's discernment and sounding off on others as self-righteous, I question whether the discussion will be fruitful.
Re: Thoughts on Heaven and Hell
Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 10:58 pm
by B. W.
Glen wrote:So I have my doubts as to your ability to separate and discern much past your worship of mans theologies, or traditions, Romans 11:33-35 is still true concerning Gods ways which you haven't been able to see the difference in much yet, which is it law or grace, condemnation of redemption, replacement theology or discernment of Gods hidden purpose for the one new mans etc..................you seem to be like waldo your everywhere, one minute your the Royal Nations, the next a partaking Gentile, or maybe the new creation kept hid, its just hard to pin you down isn't it.
I advise you to put aside your self righteousness and lean on Gods grace, and receive His gift of faith not of yourself, so you can rest in that security, and be in His Will and Desire as the Sovereign Creator, and the Potter of all the clay concerning His plan and eternal purpose, Jeremiah 18:6,7, 31:37, if He will restore Israel after all they did Ezekiel 36:31-33, he will also restore all of adams sons 1Tim 2:3-6.
So yes all things are possible with God Luke 18:26-27, so I plead guilty for thinking it is.
I find it interesting you spelled Gods in plural. I expect this was a typo as we are all prone to make from time to time and meant to spell God's instead of Gods.
With UR - there is no theological basis for one to even receive God's gift of Grace and faith thru Jesus Christ so one can rest in that security when, according to standard Universalist dogma, everyone receives eternal salvation, including even Lucifer. The cross of Christ would become insignificant and pointless – why – everyone is predestined to find salvation after they die.
If such salvation exist before the foundation of the world – the cross of Christ and his mentioning that only those that believe in John 3:16 will be saved, in essence is rather pointless because all were already saved anyways. Therefore, even the Holy Spirit’s indwelling would have no meaning or purpose either.
UR’s and all Universalist camps interpretation of 1 Tim 2:3-6 is skewed and in error. In Matthew 25:46, for example, eternal life with Christ last the same duration as eternal punishment does – forever and ever. God may desire all to be saved but that does not mean all will accept his salvific work. Therefore, Jesus can say in John 3:16. 36 – whosoever believes is saved. This limits believing only to this life, not the hereafter for Matthew 25:46 is true and for John 20:31 as well. Add to this the statements made in John 5:24, John 5:39 40, and Acts 10:43.
Bible interprets Bible through a balanced method and clarifies honest biblically based doctrine.
Your take on Luke 18:26-27 is without regard to context which refers to those that believe in Christ Sacrifice – the possible way God made for one to become born again is through Believing in Christ work on the cross and the indwelling Holy Spirit’s inner work of transformation. Look at the context of the verses that follow in Luke 18:28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, which state just that. The way made possible, which the context speaks of, is verified by other statements Jesus himself and the Apostles mentioned elsewhere.
Why this is impossible with men – is that all our works are but filthy rags. We cannot save ourselves because of our sinful rebellious state that twist and warps the things of God in such manner seeking to get away with it. UR and all forms of Universalism teaches – one can get away with it. UR and all Universalism dogmas and creeds cannot answer, why Christ came, nor can answer Jesus’ own words concerning eternal Hell for the rebellious.
So Glen, do you know the Gospel of Christ? Have you ever really heard the message? Do you even understand it? There are plenty of fine members of this Forum who can help you with this, if you do not. If you really have an idea of the gospel message, then please explain John 3:13-24, John 5:24, John 5:39 40, John 20:31, Acts 10:43, and Matthew 25:46 for us… From here, many good Christian's reading this can chime in. From what I read of your posts, you seem not to really understand the gospel message.
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Re: Thoughts on Heaven and Hell
Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 6:51 pm
by TheProtagonist
domokunrox wrote:You know. I got a really simple answer.
God's judgement is fair and just. His judgement will be perfect.
So you think that even the people who don't believe in Jesus as a result of never hearing about him deserve the eternal torture that the god of the bible claims to inflict? And also, I thought that god was merciful so how can he also be just?