Evidence for God from Science

This question stems from the How Close are the End Times page. In particular this paragraph:

If you are a Christian, you should be prepared to suffer tribulation because of your faith in Jesus Christ.3 Resolving beforehand what you will do will help strengthen you for the time when you are confronted with your belief in Christ. If you are not prepared, you will do the expedient thing - deny Christ to "save" your life.4 Denying Christ may seem like the best thing to do when you are threatened with death. However, although such a denial may save your mortal life temporarily,5 it will ultimately result in the loss of your eternal life through Christ.6

My question / statement is this: surely this is not right?

Yes you are lying, but only to save your life. In your heart you are no different, you accept that Jesus died for your sins, and only through Him will you come to the Father. As a once off scenario surely this "acceptable"!

Now under circumstances that require you to continually deny Christ, and so this most likely might include your actions (to fit in) as well, I can understand. But to save your life in a precarious situation, surely you won't lose your place in heaven as a result?

I think it may have something to do with the "mark of the beast" that the antichrist will use. Perhaps it will be either a microchip or something that will somehow automatically control your brain.

Something that will probably cause people to almost be demon possessed and it will make them do all kinds of unspeakably evil things.

In fact we may already be starting to see this kind of technology. Some brain scientists are claiming to have technology that either now or will in the near future be able to know or monitor people's thoughts, I think it is some kind of brain mapping technique.

Not only that I'm very well aware of these new nano bots that medical scientists are coming out with that can latch onto cancer cells and eliminate them or shut them down somehow.

If they can do that with individual cells and help cure illnesses than it's very possible for them to develop something that can latch onto brain cells and manipulate them to do whatever they please.

And also where scientists recently were able to "create" (or just simply re program cells with artificial man made information) this is something else too, that can be used for evil purposes.

So either way we need to be extremely vigiliant and stay as close as possible to God to prevent us from denying Christ when that time possibly comes.

If you are a Christian, you should be prepared to suffer tribulation because of your faith in Jesus Christ.3 Resolving beforehand what you will do will help strengthen you for the time when you are confronted with your belief in Christ. If you are not prepared, you will do the expedient thing - deny Christ to "save" your life.4 Denying Christ may seem like the best thing to do when you are threatened with death. However, although such a denial may save your mortal life temporarily,5 it will ultimately result in the loss of your eternal life through Christ.6

I love these "I know that I know that I know, chest thumping Pharisees.
Let's look at it in the reverse. Let's say someone puts a gun to your head and says, "If you don't believe in Jesus, I'll shoot you." So, in fear of death, you confess Christ. Does that make a believer? No. That is faith coerced, which isn't real faith. Trusting Christ can not come through such methods. So, in turn, if a believer is secure in Christ, how do they think one can lose true salvation in a moment of weakness? The flesh is weak.

If one wants to boast that they wouldn't deny Christ even in the face of death,....well, perhaps they ought to consult the ultimate alpha male disciple, Peter. They, like Peter, are boasting in the flesh. I have no doubt that some tough minded, macho dudes and dudettes could buck up and take a bullet. Through their own will they could not renounce their beliefs. Of course Muslims can ignite a back pack full of explosives with all their spunk and gumption and will power faith.

If one is to stand as Paul did, it will be through the sourcing of the Holy Spirit, not through fleshy machismo, or true grit.

Thanks guys, some good points made.

Let's look at it in the reverse. Let's say someone puts a gun to your head and says, "If you don't believe in Jesus, I'll shoot you." So, in fear of death, you confess Christ. Does that make a believer? No. That is faith coerced, which isn't real faith. Trusting Christ can not come through such methods. So, in turn, if a believer is secure in Christ, how do they think one can lose true salvation in a moment of weakness? The flesh is weak.

Only that it makes the "believer" a perfect hypocrite and the same as the "Chest thumping Pharisees".

I'd like to believe that if faced with the hypothetical situation described (hypothetical for us ... other believers have faced similar in the past from the early church on to the present today) that I would hold fast to my faith in Christ and make no such renunciation. I believe I could and would. However, if faced with the killing of others I love in the same situation, that would be an even more difficult thing.

Frankly, I don't believe God is a formula or check-list as to what we can do or not do. I believe God is Love and if I were to expect anything of Him (and I'm not a universalist in saying this) I believe God's nature and character toward us seeks for ways to reunite us to Him, not to take offense and drive us away. Christ's love we're told is such that He died for us while we were still sinners and enemies of God.

Christ died for us in much the same scenario in which He chose not to take the easy way out and it was love that drove Him to that. Christ's success where we failed is what Grace is all about. It's not about us and what we do or don't do. It's about God's provision for us and Christ's victory over evil and evil's forces (note the subtle reference to both Penal Substitutionary Atonement and Christus Victor in the same sentence ... ). Yes I know that it seems important because there is that element of declaration of faith that is referenced in Scripture and we're often all about approaching things like this in the spirit of lawyers who are parsing documents and looking for loopholes etc. For me, this is something that finds its answer in an honest assessment of the character and nature of God. He knows we are weak. Jesus knows from experience as a human in a similar situation the difficulty in overcoming our innate urge for self-preservation. I have to believe that God would deal with us as a loving father with understanding and forgiveness. Nevertheless, I would hope I could stand the test, not because I fear what God would do to me, but because I love Him and want to be true to Him.

Hope that helps.

I agree with everything you have said Bart.

I didn't mean to be legalistic in my earlier post, my only point was that if the guy who gets weak and renounces his faith, is given a measure of grace and leniency on God's part, then the same measure is given to the one who boasts about it and fails later (like peter). After all both are weak, I just didn't think that much sarcasm was called for on stereotyping.

I know at least 5 Muslim families who have come to Christ through evangelical work done by my family, and I can assure you we always tell them to not reveal their new found faith in public. In Pakistan, they will be probably killed just because of admitting it. So I do think that God understands our problems, our weaknesses and our troubles. And if someone is to stand they could only do it because they love God more than their life and have the courage of the spirit to say it and accept the consequences there of.

But there is another point I'd like you people to consider. When you bring people to Christ, as an evangelist, pastor, or even as a believer, those people look up to you, and when such a person renounces his faith, then its a chain reaction, a domino effect as they say, not always bit happens often. I have seen, at least once, an entire church dismantled because the pastor converted to Muslims (not because of fear of persecution). He was Muslim in the beginning then he turned Christian and went on for 25 years, in which he got pastor-ship of the church as well, then after 25 years he converted back. And he went with a bang, he took dirt from the street put it on his head and cried and wailed and regretted in public that he ever became a christian and in his words "a part of the litter of world". He got a lot of sympathies form the Muslims and support as well. And the church he was heading, just went stray one by one. Some people followed him and converted to Muslims, who didn't convert got stumbled and come to have a militant view of Christianity.

But I have also seen a few people who did have the courage to speak of their faith and they died because of it. I don't think such persecution is in the western world today (which is a very good thing), and from there it is quite easy to pull sides on the issue one way or the other but in the east it is different. Owning up to your faith when you are a minority, and a persecuted one at that, makes things complicated.

While renouncing your faith seems like the only viable option at times to save your loved ones or your self, it also becomes a stumbling block for others especially if you are minister (not like the one I mentioned above). So you may save your loved ones or yourself but you will lose some others as well. I guess all I'm saying is that such action whether one renounces or not, will always cost you something. It may not be your salvation, but it will come at a price.

If you will deny Christ and then you can't be save. Because Christ says.. i am the only way of truth and life.

Christ died ( and suffered ) for you.
Are you willing to die for Christ?

He could have lived by lying and saying He wasnt the Son of GOD, but He loves you so He didn't.
Do you love Christ enough to do the same

I don't think Jesus would ask anyone to die over simple, meaningless words. Words carry no weight in a situation where denying your faith can save your or someone else's life. The way I see it, words are only a sin when used as an action to harm someone else or to willfully deceive someone to gain at their expense. Saying you don't believe in Jesus when you most certainly do doesn't violate anything in my eyes.

Ivellious wrote:I don't think Jesus would ask anyone to die over simple, meaningless words. Words carry no weight in a situation where denying your faith can save your or someone else's life. The way I see it, words are only a sin when used as an action to harm someone else or to willfully deceive someone to gain at their expense. Saying you don't believe in Jesus when you most certainly do doesn't violate anything in my eyes.

I agree and would like to add, even though you have denied with the mouth you wont have denied Jesus with your heart.


Dan

I don't think Jesus would ask anyone to die over simple, meaningless words. Words carry no weight in a situation where denying your faith can save your or someone else's life. The way I see it, words are only a sin when used as an action to harm someone else or to willfully deceive someone to gain at their expense. Saying you don't believe in Jesus when you most certainly do doesn't violate anything in my eyes.

Danieltwotwenty » Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:27 am

I agree and would like to add, even though you have denied with the mouth you wont have denied Jesus with your heart.

Dan

Its not about how brave you are, its about - if you truly have that love inside and whether that love exceeds all. An action out of love is what we are talking about. If you truly love someone(let it be your wife or child, if not God), would you deny them to save your own life?

And such decisions are not always the best ones, neither there are any hypotheticals that can cover every aspect or situation. I believe that a word or two is meaningless whether that be in support or not - unless the heart is in it. A person denying Christ out of fear and a person accepting Christ because of Church or family pressure, are the same. For in them both, the love of Christ is not supreme.

A true confession of faith is more than words and yet words are as important as the intent in which they are spoken, for they flow out of your heart when you are being honest to yourself. Its comes from beyond courage and understanding. It comes with a commitment which is not rooted in reasons and benefits or losses. It is beyond rationality at times, because it defies the material and hopes for the immaterial.

What you are proposing is a shifting borderline between hypocrisy and true faith. The history of Church shows how believers were tortured and murdered because of their faith in Christ and because they chose to hold to it. Even Christ said that because of his name people will persecute his followers.

My point is, if you love Christ more than everything, then you be honest about it. If you do not love Christ more than everything, again, just be honest about it. But You can't say I love Christ with all my heart and soul and then back out of your faith too. Doesn't add up. That's the hypocrisy. I'm not putting a legal stamp over what you said, but I in all honesty I see this scenario as more of a shifting goal post.

Can someone lose their salvation because of it, is an entire separate issue, and one which can be argued from both sides, regardless of what you, me or anyone else says. At the end God knows best about it and all we can do is speculate. I do however believe that His grace far outweighs our weaknesses.

We owe a lot to Christian martyrs otherwise things may have gone bad for Romans and bible readers. it would be an honor to join their ranks anyway.

If Peter denied Christ 3 times and was still saved what does that tell you . Yes the flesh is weak but God's love and compassion are infinite and beyond our understanding. I know that if I had a gun held to my head I would still not deny Christ, but that is not because of arrogance or confidence in my myself, it is because I have been through worse then physical death and I'm still going through it now in some ways, allthought not the same as before.

Remember what It says in the bible about working out your faith in fear and trembling. These words were said, I believe in Paul so that we would never get to arrogant or full of ourselves.

Ephesians 4:25 "Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbor: for we are members of one another"
Ephesians 4:29 "Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers"
Matthew 10:32,33 "Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven"
Matthew 10:37 "He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me"
Matthew 10:39 "He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it"