Kurieuo wrote:There are two ways to God:
1) Righteously fulfilling the Law and all its requirements, or
2) by God's grace through faith in Christ
True the Law is still around, and if any one person were able to fulfill it 100% they would earn their salvation. However, to those who have broken one tittle (which we believe to be all of us Romans 3:10), the Law is what condemns us before our all-righteous God. Thankfully, God provided a second way - Christ. To those who accept Christ, they are no longer under the Law which only bring condemnation and death to us. Rather, they are under Grace.
Let me rephrase this for you... No one is justified by following the law... No one. Why? Becuase technically no one can truly follow it save Christ. But do we just chuck the whole thing away now? That I believe is where we differ. We are under grace, true, but if we truly love him, we must obey Him to the best of our ability also, or if we truly love Him.
Kurieuo wrote:One purpose of the Law remaining, and reason why it will never pass, is because it makes us conscious of our sin and inability to be completely holy (Romans 3:20). We must depend entirely upon God's grace, and when freed from the Law which brings for us sin and death, why should we then return to the Law instead of simply accept and moving more into the more glorious, heart-felt and real relationship we can have with God? Paul deals with this at depth in Romans.
- Romans 6:14 - For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.
Yes but now read the next verse...
Romans 6:15 What then?
Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! 16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?
So how do we keep from sinning? Obeying His commandments.. What Romans 6:14 seems to be implying however is not directly about law but perverting it to legalism.
Kurieuo wrote:Romans 7:4-6 - 4 So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
Ok.. Read the next verse..
Romans 7:7 What shall we say, then?
Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.”
So we understand now that in order to understand what sin is, we need to understand Torah.
Kurieuo wrote:Romans 8:1-4 - 1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. [/list]
Ok backup a few verses to Chapter 7. In these verses, Paul is claiming that the law is spiritual.
Romans 7:14
We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do,
I agree that the law is good.
Kurieuo wrote:We are no longer slaves to the law, but have something better. Why turn back to be enslaved, especially by the Law which was largely set aside for Israel. Zeal is good, but only if the purpose is good. Should we also return to the sacrificial system? No, obviously (I hope) we should not, since this just foreshadowed Christ who fulfilled their symbolism. Paul gets annoyed and frustrated with the church in Galatians 4 for wanting to return to the Law or works-focused lifestyle. To quote some snippets:
One day however in the Millennium the sacrifices will continue in Remembrance of what Yeshua did.
Kurieuo wrote:Galatians 4:8-11;21-31 -
- 8 Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods. 9 But now that you know God—or rather are known by God—how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable forces[d]? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again? 10 You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! 11 I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you.
...
21 Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. 23 His son by the slave woman was born according to the flesh, but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a divine promise.
24 These things are being taken figuratively: The women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25 Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. 27 For it is written:
“Be glad, barren woman,
you who never bore a child;
shout for joy and cry aloud,
you who were never in labor;
because more are the children of the desolate woman
than of her who has a husband.”
28 Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 At that time the son born according to the flesh persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. 30 But what does Scripture say? “Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman’s son.” 31 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.
My fear here is for Christians who get so caught up reflecting upon "what is the way things were like/we ought to be like"... that they then relect upon the Laws of Judaism and read them back into their Christianity. I can respect the zeal, but it is misplaced, confused and wrong. The Law still remains, but God was more interested in our hearts and not our motions.
- 31 “The days are coming,” declares the LORD,
“when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to[d] them,”
declares the LORD.
33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the LORD.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the LORD,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the LORD.
“For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”
The question is, are we really free from sin or not? This is not a question of whether we ought to do what is right or wrong, as Christians on either side of the great Grace/Works chasm believe good should still be done.
Keep in mind that people were also submitting themselves to the system that results from perverting the Torah into legalism too. In other words they were walking by the letter of the law but not by the spirit of the law which is just as bad.
Kurieuo wrote:The former (grace theology) are more likely to believe the Holy Spirit working in us bring forth good fruit. Such are more likely to accept their weaknesses and divert their focus to looking outwardly with love, understanding and compassion for other sinners with the same grace God demonstrates to us and letting God sanctify us. They take literally Christ's words when He says all the Law is fulfilled in loving God and loving others (Matt 22:37-39), which they try to put as their focus rather than perfecting themselves.
Yes... But when we say "love" that can be very convoluted too.. For we do not even hardly know what love means apart from the law.
Kurieuo wrote:The later (works theology) are more likely to focus inwardly on try to perfect themselves and live up to the law. Even reinstituting the Law of old given to Israel, and adding to it. Such people will often ask: "Is this action or sin or that action a sin", or respond with "This is a sin and that is a sin." They will work on what they believe is perfecting themselves and others through burdening with works that no longer apply. In Paul's terms, they are returning to be enslaved again.
If you wish to be judged by the later, then perhaps God might grant your wish (hopefully not). But Paul's words are dire that the slave women and her son will not share in the inheritance of the free? Seriously contemplate Paul's words here, as this looks to be really dangerous territory. Either our faith is in Christ and we are free from the Law, or we are still under the Law and hence to importance to get it right. To those who want to be free, accept their weakness and God's grace through faith in Christ, they are saved from God's righteous judgement. (John 5:25) Such is what we hope in, otherwise there is no hope of escaping God's righteous wrath and we are to be most pitied.
Yes I understand, but we don't even know what freedom is apart from the law according to Romans 7:7. As an example should we give up stopping at a stop sign since we are free? If we just plow through an intersection without obeying "the law" we could actually hurt someone too. Therefore the "Laws" are really not that bad, but if we pervert them into legalism or try to justify ourselves by them, then yes, we would fall under judgement.
