Evidence for God from Science

So, I don't know if this is the right place for this kind of thread, but it's the best one I could think of. If it's wrong, I apologize!

Anyway, I've been really looking for a good Tanakh/Old Testament Bible that has commentary, for real in depth study. I'm considering the Jewish Study Bible, although its reviews seem to say that it's commentary is generally liberal and historical in nature. That's fine, but it's not exactly what I'm looking for. Setting the context is important, but I want commentary on the content.

Also, I'm leaning against Old Testament (ie, Christian) commentaries just yet, as they usually seem to focus on how the Old Testament relates with the New Testament. I think that's interesting and important, but I want to study the Scriptures on their own first and understand them that way, and then make the connections. I'm not completely opposed to a Christian commentary if it's good, though.

Does anyone here know of any good study Tanakh's/Old Testaments?

I can't point to one in particular, but your best bet may be to find several copies with commentary from different sources/publishers so you can get a more full amount of commentary or context. That way you can cross reference the different notes. I personally have a couple good Bibles with commentary, but they are old and out of print (by that publisher anyway). It is very interesting to see between them how the commentary changes in some parts but is the same elsewhere.

Hm. I like the sound of that, but, it'll be a long time before I get another one. These tend to be a pretty decent amount of money, and I imagine it'd be at least a few years before I get another one. I want to do that in the future, but, for now I just want one that's best all around.

I'm starting to rethink my opinion on the Jewish Study Bible. Even if it's not ideal, it might be my best bet.

cheezerrox wrote:Hm. I like the sound of that, but, it'll be a long time before I get another one. These tend to be a pretty decent amount of money, and I imagine it'd be at least a few years before I get another one. I want to do that in the future, but, for now I just want one that's best all around.

I'm starting to rethink my opinion on the Jewish Study Bible. Even if it's not ideal, it might be my best bet.

The complete Jewish Bible is a real good one.



Also don't be too scared of Jewish sources too.. Such as the Chumash and the Tanach by Artscroll

Believe it or not, I was hoping for your input, Gman. I've noticed you're Messianic, and I've really been struck by their teaching lately. That's one reason I want to get a study Tanakh.

I've looked into the Complete Jewish Bible, and I think I would like it, but the only thing is that I want something with commentary, and for in depth study. I'm not necessarily looking just for a new translation, but also for comments and notes on the content. I've been thinking about getting the Jewish New Testament and the separate commentary that're both made by the same people. Is there anything in particular that you like about that Chumash and that study Tanakh you give links to? They seem really interesting and good, but I'm just wondering if there's specific things you like about them. I do already have a study Torah, by Richard Elliot Friedman. I don't know if you're familiar with it, but I like it. And also, what are some particulars you like about the the Complete Jewish Bible?

cheezerrox wrote:
I've looked into the Complete Jewish Bible, and I think I would like it, but the only thing is that I want something with commentary, and for in depth study. I'm not necessarily looking just for a new translation, but also for comments and notes on the content. I've been thinking about getting the Jewish New Testament and the separate commentary that're both made by the same people.

Yes, one of the best pioneers for the Messianic movement would be David Stern. He's got a great commentary on the New Testament you can find on Amazon. Other great teachers are Dan Juster who has some fabulous teachings too.

cheezerrox wrote:Is there anything in particular that you like about that Chumash and that study Tanakh you give links to? They seem really interesting and good, but I'm just wondering if there's specific things you like about them. I do already have a study Torah, by Richard Elliot Friedman. I don't know if you're familiar with it, but I like it.

I'm not familiar with him I'm afraid. There are so many different viewpoints from the Messianic movement, much like an explosion. If you would like, I could give you some pointers on the ones I feel drawn to.

About the Chumash, which means 5 in Hebrew or the first 5 books of Moses. It provides commentaries from the Talmud, Midrash and Rabbi's such as Rashi and Rambam. Keep in mind when you study this stuff is learn how to apply the Biblical or Levitical traditions instead of the Rabbitical ones. The Rabbitical commentaries are fun to study however also for our learning and history as well. That is why I study it...

cheezerrox wrote:And also, what are some particulars you like about the the Complete Jewish Bible?

My personal belief is that it is one of the best translations out there. For most translations of the NT you will find what I call a lot of Torah bashing.. Let me give you an example from the NIV.

Romans 10:4 Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

Now the Complete Jewish Bible.

Romans 10:4 For the goal at which the Torah aims is the Messiah, who offers righteousness to everyone who trusts.

Very different... Messianic Judaism seeks for Christians to return to their Hebraic roots and learn how to apply Torah from a New Testament or Messianic perspective. In other words, to learn how to walk the Torah we go to the New Testament to understand how to apply it in our daily lives. Not to stop Torah however.. Augment it.

exactly Gman. Yeshua came to fulfill torah/law whichever people prefer but torah does mean teaching or to teach i think most people fail to see that all scripture is profitable for learning as paul has stated and stick to either the old or the new instead of both. i will kind go on for a minute though about my experiences of being in a christian and messianic congregation sorry if it seems a little lengthy lol. i look at things in this fashion being on both sides of the spectrum. i have been to christian congregations and messianic congregations and i have seen the positives and negatives of both. on the christian side i have seen mainly that they don't go to the old testament and rarely do studies on it. pretty much stick to new testament gospels and don't really know the roots of their faith and have a hard time recognizing the symbolism behind certain jewish things and how jesus himself upheld a lot of the high holy days and such. on the other hand i have seen the exact opposite in messianic congregations and is why i currently i have no church (am in the process of finding a new one.) my old rabbai unfortunately has cancer and things have been getting more and more difficult for him so another is running the congregation in his place but the problem in this is that he is too much into traditions and ritualistic stuff and emphasizes on these things instead of seeing the meaning behind them. this is what Yeshua came to do away with traditions of man. it is very sad and to also see the direction it's heading. i also see a lot of christian bashing and constantly hear jokes or other unnecessary comments that irritate me. i also heard them make contradicting statements about yeshua. they said he lead the life as a prophet and then said moses was chief of all the prophets before and after him. i couldn't believe it when i heard it cuz it seemed like they were taking the divinity of Christ away making moses out to be more important than Christ himself. there were other things that started to make me feel that they adopted this view but that i can share with you at a later time. needless to say me and my wife stopped attending. i will say the time i was there before the old rabbai got worse i learned so much about the bible and about the roots of christian movement and also the symbolism behind so much.i just wanted to point that there are extremists on both ends so be careful where you go and always pray about it. i know this is a little off topic but just wanted to share.

Romans 10:4 For the goal at which the Torah aims is the Messiah, who offers righteousness to everyone who trusts.

I would like to see the scholorship on this, and just why you think that is Torah bashing. The word telos is translated end, 24 times in the NT. I would agree that we often misapply the definition of end in regards to how this text is read. But there are many other comments on the law by Paul.

jlay wrote: I would like to see the scholorship on this, and just why you think that is Torah bashing. The word telos is translated end, 24 times in the NT. I would agree that we often misapply the definition of end in regards to how this text is read. But there are many other comments on the law by Paul.

If someone says that Christ ended the law what do you think that implies?

Gman wrote:

jlay wrote: I would like to see the scholorship on this, and just why you think that is Torah bashing. The word telos is translated end, 24 times in the NT. I would agree that we often misapply the definition of end in regards to how this text is read. But there are many other comments on the law by Paul.

If someone says that Christ ended the law what do you think that implies?

Who says this?

Sorry just quickly.

Gman wrote:My personal belief is that it is one of the best translations out there. For most translations of the NT you will find what I call a lot of Torah bashing.. Let me give you an example from the NIV.

Romans 10:4 Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

Now the Complete Jewish Bible.

Romans 10:4 For the goal at which the Torah aims is the Messiah, who offers righteousness to everyone who trusts.

Very different... Messianic Judaism seeks for Christians to return to their Hebraic roots and learn how to apply Torah from a New Testament or Messianic perspective. In other words, to learn how to walk the Torah we go to the New Testament to understand how to apply it in our daily lives. Not to stop Torah however.. Augment it.

We must diverge as to what the NIV translators intended in their translating this verse, as reading it on its own would be wrong, but within the full context of the chapter perhaps not.

In the instance you provide the CJB seems to better capture Paul's words, even if it does change the words somewhat. However, better is the KJV or NASB which reads:

Romans 10:4 (NASB): For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
Romans 10:4 (KJV): For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

What this appeals to which the CJB tends to leave out, is that the law no longer applies to those who believe. Confer with any version of Romans 7:4.

We really are free from the law thanks to Christ. That is, we are not righteous nor do we attain rightousness based upon our keeping the law, but rather through Christ.

Kurieuo wrote:We really are free from the law thanks to Christ. That is, we are not righteous nor do we attain rightousness based upon our keeping the law, but rather through Christ.

But how? (this might get dicey so hold on to your straps).

G,
i understand the objection. however, I don't think that this translation was the result of Torah bashing. many popular translations use differnt words such as consumation, culmanation and fulfillment.

In fact i don't think the context of Romans 10 is addressing whether the OT law is still applicable, but addressing Israel's rejection of salvation in contrast to the Gentiles receiving it. I think Galatians is the book that Paul uses to address this Law issue in more specifics. The error is that I think some are applying what is in Galatians to what is said in Romans 10:4. so, in the context of Romans 10:4 I do not think Paul's focus is that the Law is done away with, but that Messiah is the fulfillment of the law. However, i think Paul does address elsewhere that the OT Law is not to be applied to Gentile believers in any form or fashion.

You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. Gal. 5:4

Byblos wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:We really are free from the law thanks to Christ. That is, we are not righteous nor do we attain righteousness based upon our keeping the law, but rather through Christ.

But how? (this might get dicey so hold on to your straps).

Maybe I'm just playing dense to give myself some space after posting in the divine simplicity thread. But I'm not entirely sure I know what you mean... how what?

Kurieuo wrote:

Byblos wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:We really are free from the law thanks to Christ. That is, we are not righteous nor do we attain righteousness based upon our keeping the law, but rather through Christ.

But how? (this might get dicey so hold on to your straps).

Maybe I'm just playing dense to give myself some space after posting in the divine simplicity thread. But I'm not entirely sure I know what you mean... how what?

You rightly said that we attain righteousness through Christ and my question is what does that exactly entail?