The Church

[Tina]

Does anyone else feel as if churches are getting more and more....I don't how to say it....corrupt?? Or cult like? I tested out several different churches in my town, and they all were either really..ritual...or cult like. I don't see much passion in them, they just seem like a leader ,or more, directing zombies. I never see/hear people ask their pastor questions. They just go to church, do the routine, chat a little, and leave. Most of the youth in my town only use church as a way to group up with their friends. They sit in the back rows and text, gossip, or play games on their mobile devices, not even listening. I no longer go to church. I had a discussion about the routine-like nature to one of the pastors, and he acted like it was the first time he noticed it, like his eyes were just opened or something.

I feel as if when the elderly die.......many churches will be empty
What are your thoughts?

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

I feel as if when the elderly die.......many churches will be empty
What are your thoughts?

In my part of the world, this is already happening. The empty churches are protected as a ''cultural heritage'' and so cannot be demolished. So, they are converted into homes for the elderly, into condominiums or - for the smaller ones - into private homes.

You are behind the times, Tina! Welcome to the Brave New World.

FL

[Tina]

I feel as if when the elderly die.......many churches will be empty
What are your thoughts?

In my part of the world, this is already happening. The empty churches are protected as a ''cultural heritage'' and so cannot be demolished. So, they are converted into homes for the elderly, into condominiums or - for the smaller ones - into private homes.

You are behind the times, Tina! Welcome to the Brave New World.

FL

Sigh =,< I will never understand people

[eric246]

Does anyone else feel as if churches are getting more and more....I don't how to say it....corrupt?? Or cult like? I tested out several different churches in my town, and they all were either really..ritual...or cult like. I don't see much passion in them, they just seem like a leader ,or more, directing zombies. I never see/hear people ask their pastor questions. They just go to church, do the routine, chat a little, and leave. Most of the youth in my town only use church as a way to group up with their friends. They sit in the back rows and text, gossip, or play games on their mobile devices, not even listening. I no longer go to church. I had a discussion about the routine-like nature to one of the pastors, and he acted like it was the first time he noticed it, like his eyes were just opened or something.

I feel as if when the elderly die.......many churches will be empty
What are your thoughts?

Where there are humans, there will be corruption. Just go back to the medieval days with the Catholic church.

[Canuckster1127]

George Barna put out a book in 2005 called Revolution.

http://www.amazon.com/Revolution-George ... 1414307586

Barna was for many years one of the driving forces in the US for supporting the growth of megachurches and other Church Growth related materials. Many people refer to him as the George Gallup of Christianity as he and his company did a great deal of objective surveying and then translated and applied it to how Churches could take that info and translate it into growth and impact. He was pretty influential to the "seeker sensitive" movement of the 80s and 90s.

Anyway, George made some huge changes several years back. He realized based on his research and observation that while churches were "growing" through his efforts, that when he examined things like whether church members had a biblical worldview and whether there was any significant difference in things like divorce rates and abortion rates, there was not any really statistically significant differences.

This brought about something of a personal crisis for Barna, who is a Christian and in the end resulted in him leaving institutional church in favor of house churches and it also resulted in him downsizing his firm from about 100 employees to one of about 8. He still does the research and analysis but he's no longer driven by the market of pop-culture churches that were his primary customere earlier.

The fact is that while institutional church will likely never completely disappear, that in the US there is a very significant diminishing of the numbers of churches and those participating in them when compared with the America of about 50 years ago and back. About 1,000,000 people per year are leaving traditional institutional churches every year and about 1,500 church workers are leaving occupational type employment in the organized church every month. I was part of that statistic myself about 7 years ago.

Barna's book predicts many of these developments that today are happening and examines the reasons why. It's a good read in my opinion still despite the time passed because that time has demonstrated Barna's forecasts for the most part.

[jlay]

Hmm?
At my congregation the youth sit in the front middle rows and are the most engaged in worship.

As Bart said, there are plenty of issues in the congregational church. Many congregations in response are employing more organic structure such as small groups. If you go to church looking for what is wrong, I promise you will find it.

Also, if you find the perfect congregation don't join, because as soon as you do, it's no longer perfect.

[Kurieuo]

I've thought on this extensively, and anyone who's read my opinions in the past, will know I sympathise with Bart's position on the matter of churches. That said, I joined a Baptist church 2.5 years ago. Don't go regularly right now as it is quite hard with a 3 kids, one of which is a newborn and the church doesn't really accomodate mother's in services so my wife dreads going... but the messages are generally very good, and it is a "safe" theological environment for my kids.

At the end of the day, I don't think the issue with churches are necessarily "the church". I think it really comes down to a lack of persecution in our western Christian communities, so humans just end up acting out their natural and selfish behaviours. What is wrong with churches, is that the people within them don't have any pressing mission or need. So they're usually focussed on natural human behaviours like what others will think of them, saying the right things, coming across spiritual, being seen in positive light, or just having a group (often closed group) of friends, or cohorts if you will, that they can band together with inside the church to become more recognisable. These are just all natural human desires and inclinations, and as I see it there is nothing inherently wrong with such things except when they begin taking an extreme priority. To be honest, human nature is generally what repulses me in churches and I'm no exception.

However, throw in some Christians being killed for their beliefs, the possibility your gathering could be overrun by police and beatings as religious meetings are outlawed --- there you'll have a much richer and better church, and no doubt smaller church. History shows that Christianity generally flourishes under persecution, and I mean REAL persecution and not simply being told we're uneducated or deluded. The chaff and human ego goes away in persecution being overrun by the importance and need to band together.

Perhaps with churches it does not have to be negative external factors, but if people felt truly apart of the mission and an important part of it, then they would feel fulfilled. But then having no external "threats" or reasons kind of allows people to just do what they feel up to doing. To be apart of a mission, a person has to join up. We're just lazy by nature and churches and people in them will not be altruistic unless there is some real external threat that unites people.

So I kind of just leave it at churches fulfill a particular role in my life, but are not the be-all and end-all. If a church isn't working for you, then look at what ways they are working for you and get that from them. Also, don't be entirely selfish, if a church is fulfilling something for you then give back to them in appreciation. Take responsibility for your other needs and nurture them through other means. For me, a church is a place where my kids can become familiar with God and fundamentally correct doctrine. It is also a place where I can worship, pray, reflect heavily on God and more often than not at my church, hear a good and well delivered message.

[Danieltwotwenty]

It took me at least 3 Churches before I found one that was sane, the people at my church are very community orientated and not just with the Church community.
If you lived in Victoria Australia I would invite you to come lol, as I am sure you would find very caring and loving people there.
I think what makes it such an interesting place is that we have a wide range of personality types, our Pastor is very pastoral and is an emotional rock when you need someone to lean on, the elders at the church are a mix of intellectuals and people of great heart and wisdom.
I feel so blessed that God sent me to this place, even though we are small (75 regular attendants) we have definitely become the hub in our small town.

I hope you find a Church that is wholesome and Christ focused, or if you don't I hope you find God in everything you do.


Dan

[CallMeDave]

Does anyone else feel as if churches are getting more and more....I don't how to say it....corrupt?? Or cult like? I tested out several different churches in my town, and they all were either really..ritual...or cult like. I don't see much passion in them, they just seem like a leader ,or more, directing zombies. I never see/hear people ask their pastor questions. They just go to church, do the routine, chat a little, and leave. Most of the youth in my town only use church as a way to group up with their friends. They sit in the back rows and text, gossip, or play games on their mobile devices, not even listening. I no longer go to church. I had a discussion about the routine-like nature to one of the pastors, and he acted like it was the first time he noticed it, like his eyes were just opened or something.

I feel as if when the elderly die.......many churches will be empty
What are your thoughts?

It isnt your imagination..in fact, the Bible gives clear indication that many Churches who claim to be Christian will turn to apostate teaching , corruptness, immorality, become as our secularized culture is, and have the appearance of being Godly but denying the power of God in their lives as expressed in their actions, behavior, motives, and talk. Yes, its a shame...however, there are still many good , sound, healthy, real Christian Churches out there so theres no need for a person to stay away from getting good sound teaching of the Bible for daily living, worshipping God in a corporate atmosphere, and making new friends with others who want to grow in their relationship with God. If you need a good local Church in your area, go to www.equip.org and the Christian Research Institute will be able to suggest a couple or more close to where you live. The worse thing you could do, is, allow Satan the upper hand in keeping you away from getting plugged in to a vitalized Christian Church in your locale where you can worship, grow, and serve...so please , fight against the luring away.

[Canuckster1127]

Being the church is a lot different than going to a building which is inaccurately called a "church."

When guilt and shame become a part of sending and holding people to an organization, then there's something seriously wrong which deserves to be questioned. Romans 8 speaks of living in grace and outside of the condemnation of men; even men who take titles in contradiction to Christ's instruction to his disciples. There's so much more than what so many have settled for as "church." It's worth holding out for.

There's nothing inherently wrong with gathering in a traditional church if that's where you believe God wants you to be. Don't ever mistake that however as even remotely resembling what the scriptures are speaking of when it speaks of "church" or the "ekklesia." Church is the body of Christ and it is a measure of relationship and "one anothering" each other toward growth in Christ. Sitting in a pew, watching the back of other people's heads while paid performers act on stage or deliver a lecture is not scriptural church. If that's all church is in the context of a local gathering without the elements of body life that Christ and the New Testament speak of, then look elsewhere. Sadly organizations and institutions over time can tend to become more about preserving themselves than living to their original purpose.