Evidence for God from Science

Posted: **Thu Mar 22, 2012 4:11 pm**

Good evening everyone,

I hope I'm posting in the correct thread. I'm an atheist in a relationship with a theist. We've been together a little over 2 years and have had serious conversations about marriage and how we would raise our future children. I was raised christian and "lost my faith" about 5 years ago. I was taught about heaven and hell at a young age and it quite honestly frightened me often. I don't want my children to have similar experiences as I had.

Now my girlfriend wants to take the child to church at a young age when they are susceptible to accepting everything they are told as truth. I originally said I do not want my child to go to church at all, but later realized that was a rather extreme comment and I was in the wrong. I don't have a problem with teaching my children about religion (all religions), but prefer to do it when they are slightly older. I don't have any issues with her taking the child to church when it's older and able to think critically about what they are being told. I thought that was a good middle ground, but it is not.

I realize teaching a child about a religion, or in any particular philosophy or ideology, does not mean they will keep to it for the rest of their lives (as I have changed mine), but I still see it as an unnecessary fear to instill in a child at such a young age.

So, are there churches which hold of on the topics of heaven and hell (seems like a staple of the Christian religion)? I am open to suggestions. This is basically the only major topic we disagree on, and I would like to have it resolved. What are your thoughts?

Thanks for your time.

Posted: **Thu Mar 22, 2012 4:27 pm**

I'm just going to be open, studies show more people leave the church who went to Sunday school at a younger age compared to the ones who never went.

Okay, now what I was going to say. Honestly, you are going to damage your child for having two separate beliefs. One being an atheistic belief and one with a theistic belief. Coming from that situation I listed above, it honestly hurts me to see it happen to other people. Because of this, I have a horrible relationship with my father. I recommend thinking about this A LOT!

Posted: **Thu Mar 22, 2012 4:37 pm**

Dallas wrote:I'm just going to be open, studies show more people leave the church who went to Sunday school at a younger age compared to the ones who never went.

Okay, now what I was going to say. Honestly, you are going to damage your child for having two separate beliefs. One being an atheistic belief and one with a theistic belief. Coming from that situation I listed above, it honestly hurts me to see it happen to other people. Because of this, I have a horrible relationship with my father. I recommend thinking about this A LOT!

Well, it doesn't matter to me if the child ends up atheist or theist in the long run. My girlfriend went to church at a young age and stayed with it, I went to church at a young age and did not. That's not the issue.

I'm sorry to hear about your relationship with your father, but how does having different beliefs harm a child? I could see if the parents were fighting constantly in front of their kids, but we don't really "fight," and if we did, it certainly wouldn't be heated or in front of the children. Parents disagree on a wide range of topics, this is just one of many that people have. As I said above, this is pretty much the only major disagreement we have had in our 2+ year relationship. Take the child to church at a young age and expose them to things such as the concepts of heaven and hell (among other things, many being good), or not.

I appreciate your feedback, if you have the link to the study, it sounds like an interesting read and I would appreciate if you posted it.

Posted: **Thu Mar 22, 2012 4:43 pm**

Of course many who post here will look at this from the point of whether hell is true or not and if it is, then why shouldn't children be presented with that truth, albeit in a form appropriate to them and not excessively distressing in terms of its intensity and presentation.

That said, I can understand some of what you're saying. There are churches that present the gospel in a way that even adults can be distressed at the use of shame, guilt and fear employed to attempt to convert others. Sometimes these are referred to as the "turn and burn." This is a very, very general statement but the churches that tend to take this approach are typically smaller churches, and it's pretty clear where they are coming from if you read a statement of faith. Just the statement of a belief in hell isn't going to mean that they are extreme or inappropriate. I understand you seem to want to keep that teaching completely out of the picture, but consider that there's a pretty significant difference in presentation and not all churches are involved.

Churches that don't believe or won't teach anything about hell are generally going to be very liberal or in the vein of Unitarian and/or Universalist churches.

Probably the best thing you could do is get to know the teachers involved, tell them of your concern and know what is going on in the class. Your presence and involvement will probably have more impact and give you a greater sense of ease as to what is being taught to your child.

Perhaps, as well, the experience of being an adult in that environment and more involved and deliberate about thing might give you an opportunity to see if the change is mind is more a response to the techniques you were exposed to as a child and consider the truth on a more objective level now if you're open to any reconsideration, which I hope you will be.

Hope that helps.

bart

Posted: **Thu Mar 22, 2012 4:55 pm**

Canuckster1127 wrote: Probably the best thing you could do is get to know the teachers involved, tell them of your concern and know what is going on in the class. Your presence and involvement will probably have more impact and give you a greater sense of ease as to what is being taught to your child.

Perhaps, as well, the experience of being an adult in that environment and more involved and deliberate about thing might give you an opportunity to see if the change is mind is more a response to the techniques you were exposed to as a child and consider the truth on a more objective level now if you're open to any reconsideration, which I hope you will be.

Hope that helps.

bart

Well said, thank you Bart. Getting involved before hand is an excellent idea. Very simple solution to what I thought was such a complicated issue

While the negative experience I had as a child played a role in my loss of faith, there are many other factors. It would take a lot to change my mind on the matter (albeit I am open to it). I've read the intro for atheists on the front page of your site, and while an interesting read, isn't enough to pursued me. I know this isn't a place for debate, so I think we could leave it at that.

Thanks again for the feedback Bart, it gives me a little more to consider.

Posted: **Thu Mar 22, 2012 5:03 pm**

Pierson5 wrote:Good evening everyone,

I hope I'm posting in the correct thread. I'm an atheist in a relationship with a theist. We've been together a little over 2 years and have had serious conversations about marriage and how we would raise our future children. I was raised christian and "lost my faith" about 5 years ago. I was taught about heaven and hell at a young age and it quite honestly frightened me often. I don't want my children to have similar experiences as I had.

Now my girlfriend wants to take the child to church at a young age when they are susceptible to accepting everything they are told as truth. I originally said I do not want my child to go to church at all, but later realized that was a rather extreme comment and I was in the wrong. I don't have a problem with teaching my children about religion (all religions), but prefer to do it when they are slightly older. I don't have any issues with her taking the child to church when it's older and able to think critically about what they are being told. I thought that was a good middle ground, but it is not.

I realize teaching a child about a religion, or in any particular philosophy or ideology, does not mean they will keep to it for the rest of their lives (as I have changed mine), but I still see it as an unnecessary fear to instill in a child at such a young age.

So, are there churches which hold of on the topics of heaven and hell (seems like a staple of the Christian religion)? I am open to suggestions. This is basically the only major topic we disagree on, and I would like to have it resolved. What are your thoughts?

ANSWER:

You know, I do not think that Church will hurt the child at all. The bible is not damaging to children whatsoever. I would say definitely allow church at any age, but you yourself need to find truthful and non contradictory ways to speak to your child on faith issues. One perhaps being that "The truth will set you free." I think that you can intelligently take a position of honesty with your child and proclaim when you are ignorant of something and also uphold a value of honest seeking in your childs life which will in no means damage his relationship with God, or your relationship with one another. I think he will find you to be a man of integrity if you accomplish this.

You need to do some research and be creative. Do all of it for the best interest of your child in honesty and honest self reflection. If you actually hope that there is a loving God and life after death, it would be better to say that to a child rather than proclaim that there is no meaning to life and when we die there is nothing. The latter will damage the child as it is a hopeless state of mind. He will become angry at life and act out because of it.

I hope this helps, and good luck!

Thanks for your time.

Posted: **Thu Mar 22, 2012 5:38 pm**

Dallas, I disagree with the idea that having two different beliefs will automatically hurt a child. I was raised in a household where we occasionally went to church (Lutheran in denomination) but I was also exposed often to a Lutheran grandmother, a Catholic grandmother (on the other side), a generally agnostic father and a mother whose religious views are Christian in origin but do not strictly adhere to any denomination. I can name several friends of mine raised in even more conflicting households religiously, and they turned out fine too.

I can totally understand the concern over churches that openly preach more about consequences and punishment than everything else. Some of my friends were turned off of religion because of the constant barrage of "fire and brimstone" sermons that gave little room for anything positive about Christianity. I would suggest that if you wanted to avoid that, you could just go to a church with you and your partner and see what the environment is like, how open and friendly it is, the focus of the sermons, etc.

Posted: **Thu Mar 22, 2012 6:21 pm**

Pierson5 wrote:I'm an atheist in a relationship with a theist.

It would seem, by reading between the lines, that neither your atheism or her ''theism'' is of any great importance to either of you. These are just labels you wear; they don't define you or guide you in making the most important decision in life: choosing a mate.

Pierson5 wrote:Now my girlfriend wants to take the child to church at a young age when they are susceptible to accepting everything they are told as truth.

(Emphasis mine.)

You know this is not true! Consider your own experience: raised Christian but now an atheist.

Why not tell us what's really bothering you?

FL

Posted: **Thu Mar 22, 2012 8:41 pm**

seveneyes wrote:
Pierson5 wrote: ANSWER:

You know, I do not think that Church will hurt the child at all. The bible is not damaging to children whatsoever. I would say definitely allow church at any age, but you yourself need to find truthful and non contradictory ways to speak to your child on faith issues. One perhaps being that "The truth will set you free." I think that you can intelligently take a position of honesty with your child and proclaim when you are ignorant of something and also uphold a value of honest seeking in your childs life which will in no means damage his relationship with God, or your relationship with one another. I think he will find you to be a man of integrity if you accomplish this.

You need to do some research and be creative. Do all of it for the best interest of your child in honesty and honest self reflection. If you actually hope that there is a loving God and life after death, it would be better to say that to a child rather than proclaim that there is no meaning to life and when we die there is nothing. The latter will damage the child as it is a hopeless state of mind. He will become angry at life and act out because of it

I'm going to have to disagree with you on that one. As I stated before, I know the effects first hand of what being taught about eternal hellfire as a child does to ones psychi. Im not an isolated case either. Many children grow up with this fear, many with violent nightmares. As for telling my child there is no god and therefore no meaning to life is silly. I wouldn't tell my child there is no god, unless they ask me what I believe. And certainly this does not mean I have no meaning in life. Quite the contrary. I don't believe I need a deity to know a life dedicated to curing disease is more worth while than a life spent doing drugs. Why should we not find satisfaction in alleviating suffering or injustice, just because we’re all going to die one day? The very fact that this life is all I have makes it even more important to do everything possible to reduce the suffering caused by poverty, disease, injustice and ignorance. The rest of your post was a little hard to follow.

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:
Pierson5 wrote:Now my girlfriend wants to take the child to church at a young age when they are susceptible to accepting everything they are told as truth.
(Emphasis mine.)

You know this is not true! Consider your own experience: raised Christian but now an atheist.

Why not tell us what's really bothering you?

FL

You seem to have misunderstood what I wrote. I said I lost my faith 5 years ago (Im 24), therefore I was a believer for 19 years. I DID believe what my parents told me when I was raised in a Christian household. I am here for relationship advice on a religious topic, and I wanted a perspective from a religious community. So far I received excellent advice from a couple of posters, and I leave the discussion open for more input on this situation. Thankyou to those who have responded so far.

Posted: **Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:21 pm**

Hi Pierson5,

I appreciate your honest candor and reasonableness. Please feel free to peruse the forum and post questions and comments as well as begin topics in appropriate places. You are most welcome here and as you discovered, you’ll get many returning comments from a wide array of folks. Again, thank you for posting and God Bless!
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Posted: **Fri Mar 23, 2012 4:20 am**

Pierson5 wrote:You seem to have misunderstood what I wrote. I said I lost my faith 5 years ago (Im 24), therefore I was a believer for 19 years. I DID believe what my parents told me when I was raised in a Christian household. I am here for relationship advice on a religious topic, and I wanted a perspective from a religious community.

OK...I'm wondering why an atheist would,

1) marry someone who believes in a supernatural realm, and,
2) consider indoctrinating their (future) child about a god by going to a church.

There is something incongruent about your story.

FL

Posted: **Fri Mar 23, 2012 4:59 am**

Pierson5 wrote:

I'm sorry to hear about your relationship with your father, but how does having different beliefs harm a child? I could see if the parents were fighting constantly in front of their kids, but we don't really "fight," and if we did, it certainly wouldn't be heated or in front of the children. Parents disagree on a wide range of topics, this is just one of many that people have. As I said above, this is pretty much the only major disagreement we have had in our 2+ year relationship. Take the child to church at a young age and expose them to things such as the concepts of heaven and hell (among other things, many being good), or not.

I appreciate your feedback, if you have the link to the study, it sounds like an interesting read and I would appreciate if you posted it.

I heard that fact when a creationist came to my church, sorry. But I found a nice article on the reason why Sunday school isn't as effective today as it was let's say, 30 years ago.
http://www.9marks.org/journal/why-sunda ... t-its-edge

I still have to finish it, but from what I read it's very good

Posted: **Fri Mar 23, 2012 5:26 am**

Pierson5 wrote:
Canuckster1127 wrote: Probably the best thing you could do is get to know the teachers involved, tell them of your concern and know what is going on in the class. Your presence and involvement will probably have more impact and give you a greater sense of ease as to what is being taught to your child.

Perhaps, as well, the experience of being an adult in that environment and more involved and deliberate about thing might give you an opportunity to see if the change is mind is more a response to the techniques you were exposed to as a child and consider the truth on a more objective level now if you're open to any reconsideration, which I hope you will be.

Hope that helps.

bart

Well said, thank you Bart. Getting involved before hand is an excellent idea. Very simple solution to what I thought was such a complicated issue

While the negative experience I had as a child played a role in my loss of faith, there are many other factors. It would take a lot to change my mind on the matter (albeit I am open to it). I've read the intro for atheists on the front page of your site, and while an interesting read, isn't enough to pursued me. I know this isn't a place for debate, so I think we could leave it at that.

Thanks again for the feedback Bart, it gives me a little more to consider.

You're welcome Pierson. I'm glad it helped.

Posted: **Fri Mar 23, 2012 7:06 am**

I'm going to have to disagree with you on that one. As I stated before, I know the effects first hand of what being taught about eternal hellfire as a child does to ones psychi. Im not an isolated case either. Many children grow up with this fear, many with violent nightmares. As for telling my child there is no god and therefore no meaning to life is silly. I wouldn't tell my child there is no god, unless they ask me what I believe. And certainly this does not mean I have no meaning in life. Quite the contrary. I don't believe I need a deity to know a life dedicated to curing disease is more worth while than a life spent doing drugs. Why should we not find satisfaction in alleviating suffering or injustice, just because we’re all going to die one day? The very fact that this life is all I have makes it even more important to do everything possible to reduce the suffering caused by poverty, disease, injustice and ignorance. The rest of your post was a little hard to follow.

As someone who has taught the Bible to children for going on 11 years, I think I can offer some advice. Since I work in the mission field and also teach in church, I deal with children who are for lack of a better word, 'indoctrinated,' and children who have either no Christian upbringing or an anti-Christian upbringing.

First, your assumption is that if your children go to a church they are going to have the same experience as you. Hellfire preaching has scarred a lot of people. It attempts to coerce people into a decision through fear tactics. That doesn't mean Hell is or isn't real. That is a consequential fallacy. It also doesn't mean that fear is necessarily bad. I want my child to have a healthy fear of water, strangers, and drugs. It is just that often times Hell is preached at the expense of the Gospel ,as opposed to in light of the gospel. Hellfire preaching is wrong and a huge setback for the Christian image. I can assure you that if your child came to my class, they would not be manipulated or coerced. That doesn't mean I would not present a strong case for Christ. Nor would I necesearily avoid the subject of Hell. I will and do teach on such things. But I will do so reasonably and logically, and in a loving manner.

-Based on your testimony I would question whether you actually lost your faith. No one 'loses' their faith. They intentionly reject something as true or not. True Christian faith, by definition, cannot be coerced. That may sound confusing, but let me offer this as an example. Can someone force you to truly love someone else? Absolutely not. I can put a gun to your head and force you to buy your spouse flowers, say nice things, etc. But I cannot coerce you to actually love them.
If you lost this 'faith' you testify to, then by definition, you did not have what we would define as faith. Faith in Christ is a knowing faith. One based on a relationship of knowing one's personal need of saving, and then trusting in the message and work of Christ as the provision. Much like love, it is a heart motive. Obviously you are welcome to provide more background as to what you mean by "lost my faith." As a Christian I would not want my child to have the experience you had either. This is the problem with religion. Religion is an opiate for the masses. If you are an 'atheist' because some religious zealot scarred you, then I say, welcome to the club. But that really isn't by definition an atheist at all. The existence of God and the truth of the Bible do not hinge on such things. I know a corrupt judge, but that doesn't make the legal system not exist.

Let me also try to offer some perspective in regards to the objections you mentioned above. That being the value and meaning of life. When we speak of 'meaning' we may be looking at it in a different way. Let's suppose for a minute that atheism is correct. The universe is not created, material and unguided. As such it is purposeless. There is no meaning or reason for the universe. Yet, we as humans do believe that life has meaning. Why? Obviously, the mind. We are self-aware, conscious and moral beings. The Christian believes that the universe does have purpose and meaning. And that the purpose of the universe focuses on the existance of mankind. This can be studied under something called the anthropic principle. It has its supporters and critics, but argues that the universe is finally tuned in a myriad of ways to support intelligent life on earth. You can read about it here.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_principle
As an example, take the laws of logic. We are using them now to have a conversation. You are using them to argue that life has meaning even without God. The problem, is that to argue your point, you must first presume that logic has some basis outside of man. Otherwise you are using a logic, which is the result of an unguided, purposeless, material universe, to argue that your life which is also the result of an unguided, purposeless, material universe, actually has meaning. We would call that illusion or delusion. You perceive meaning, but the reality is that holding to atheism consistently allows for no such possibility. You may perceive meaning, but it is no more significant than say, digesting a hamburger. It is just an illuision of human consciousness. Afterall, your thoughts are just molecules in motion. The love and concern you feel for your child may seem real, but there is no basis for it. It is a cruel trick of nature. The Christian on the other hand sees the laws of logic and the other laws in the universe as divinely ordained and purposed, and thus human life has inherent meaning. It has objective value.

If an atheist is to argue that defeating cancer has any inherent value then he must smuggle in inherent meaning. If he smuggles in inherent meaning, then he also smuggles in some cause outside of man for that meaning. Some of the leading atheist today such as Richard Dawkins are at least honest about the implications of atheism. Dawkins says, “The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind pitiless indifference.”
If that is true, then you and I are the result of such. The hard core atheist mocks the Christian for trying to find meaning in a higher power. Yet how much more should the hard core atheist mock on of his own who says there is real meaning in life?

Posted: **Fri Mar 23, 2012 7:42 am**

Good post Jlay.

Evidence for God from Science

Atheist: "Do I take my child to church?"

Atheist: "Do I take my child to church?"

Re: Atheist: "Do I take my child to church?"

Re: Atheist: "Do I take my child to church?"

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Re: Atheist: "Do I take my child to church?"

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Re: Atheist: "Do I take my child to church?"

Re: Atheist: "Do I take my child to church?"

Re: Atheist: "Do I take my child to church?"

Re: Atheist: "Do I take my child to church?"

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Re: Atheist: "Do I take my child to church?"

Re: Atheist: "Do I take my child to church?"

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