Evidence for God from Science

Matthew 28:

18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

1 Corinthians 1: 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

We know that Paul did baptise: 1 Corinthians 1: 14 I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so no one can say that you were baptized into my name. 16 (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don’t remember if I baptized anyone else.)

Is Paul disobeying Jesus' command to baptise? Why would Paul say Christ did not send him to baptise when all the Apostles were commanded to baptise?

Thank you.

Paul is absolutely not disobeying that command. For one, that command was NOT given to him. It was given to the 12. Paul wouldn't come on the scene until much later.

Paul was called directly by the Lord and was given direct revelation on more than one occassion. His conversion on the road to Damascus in Acts 9. Acts 16:9, Acts 18:9 are other visions recorded. Paul's commission was to go to the Gentiles. There is some debate about when Paul quit baptizing. We know that he did. We also know that he would initially go to the Jews while on his journeys. We see a pattern of continued rejection from the Jews throughout the book of Acts. Paul says he will then go to the Gentiles.

Most Dispensational charts show a period of overlap between the time of Paul, and the eventual distruction of the Temple in 70 A.D.
http://www.bereangracechurch.com/images ... eSmall.jpg
The slanted blue line that says, 'dimisnishing,' is to what this refers. The basic theory being that the the "Kingdom" was offered to Israel, only, according to the promises. (Matt. 15:24) This began with the ministry of JTB, and continued with the earthly ministry of Jesus, and finally commissioned to the 12 to preach the Gospel of the KINGDOM. This Gospel to Israel would be unmistakeable. (Mark 16:14,15,16,17,18) Kingdom is a word with specific meaning and very much has to do with Israel. Jews at that time were dispersed all over the known world, so this Gospel would be preached in Jerusalem, then Samaria and then to the ends of the earth. This Gospel was for the Jews and was conditional on repentance, and baptism. We see an initial offer to Israel which is received on the day of Pentecost. However, the religious authority rejects the message and we see the eventual stoning of Stephen. The Lord, who was to be seated for a time at the right hand, is now seen standing. Something has transpired. We then see the calling of Paul. So, did Jesus mess up? Did He make a mistake commissioning the 12? What is up with this Paul guy? Paul was called for a unique purpose. One that he says was hidden from the prophets and a secret, which God was now revealing. The Gospel of Grace. Acts 20:24

It is this period of overlap that causes problems. In fact, Acts records that it caused problems then as well. Even in a confrontation between Paul and Peter, where Paul has to rebuke Peter. Peter of course in his epistle endorses the minsistry of the Paul, and verifies his writings as authoritative. (2 Peter 3:16)
Gal. 2:7

Here is a quote from Vincent Word Studies that pretty much says it all...

From Vincent Word Studies

Matthew 28:19

Teach (μαθητεύσατε)

Rev., rightly, make disciples of.

In the name (εἰς τὸ ὄνομα)

Rev., correctly, “into the name.” Baptizing into the name has a twofold meaning. 1. Unto, denoting object or purpose, as εἰς μετάνοιαν, unto repentance (Mat 3:11); εἰς ἄφεσιν ἁμαρτιῶν, for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38).

2. Into, denoting union or communion with, as Rom 6:3, “baptized into Christ Jesus; into his death;” i.e., we are brought by baptism into fellowship with his death. Baptizing into the name of the Holy Trinity implies a spiritual and mystical union with him. Eἰς, into, is the preposition commonly used with baptize. See Acts 8:16; Acts 19:3, Acts 19:5; 1Co 1:13, 1Co 1:15; 1Co 10:2; Gal 3:27.

In Acts 2:38, however, Peter says, “Be baptized upon (ἐπὶ) the name of Jesus Christ; and in Acts 10:48, he commands Cornelius and his friends to be baptized in (ἐν) the name of the Lord. To be baptized upon the name is to be baptized on the confession of that which the name implies: on the ground of the name; so that the name Jesus, as the contents of the faith and confession, is the ground upon which the becoming baptized rests.

In the name (ἐν) has reference to the sphere within which alone true baptism is accomplished. The name is not the mere designation, a sense which would give to the baptismal formula merely the force of a charm. The name, as in the Lord's Prayer (“Hallowed be thy name”), is the expression of the sum total of the divine Being: not his designation as God or Lord, but the formula in which all his attributes and characteristics are summed up.

It is equivalent to his person. The finite mind can deal with him only through his name; but his name is of no avail detached from his nature. When one is baptized into the name of the Trinity, he professes to acknowledge and appropriate God in all that he is and in all that he does for man. He recognizes and depends upon God the Father as his Creator and Preserver; receives Jesus Christ as his only Mediator and Redeemer, and his pattern of life; and confesses the Holy Spirit as his Sanctifier and Comforter.

Alway (πάσας τὰς ἡμέρας)

Lit., all the days. Wyc., in all days.

Matthew 28:19 context involves making disciples and next answers how…

Mat 28:19, "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit"… NASB

The word Baptize is not limited only to mean water immersion. It is used a wider context of simply being placed into something and coming out different, or going through an experience and coming out different. One can be baptized by fire, by combat, by college learning…

Now go back and note the context of Mat 28:19:

"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit…" NASB

The idea here is making disciples. Jesus explains how – by placing them in the union of the fullness of the Godhead. How is explained by context – look again:

You train and equip believers to be in union with the Father as creator, preserver, source, will, placed into His Kingdom, etc.

You train and equip believers to be in union with the Son as, mediator, redeemer, learning to reflect his pattern of life (just as it says in the bible).

You train and equip believers to be in union with the Holy Spirit as ones personal sanctifier and comforter, empower, teacher, etc…

That is how you make disciples. This rote was not intended as a water Baptism formula, but rather has by far a more profound meaning.

Add to this the last statement in verse 20…

Mat 28:20 "…teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." NASB

To make disciples involves teaching everything he tells us too added along with learning the union we have in the Godhead…

Note context of John 17:21-26: ".... 21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.

22 "The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; 23 I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me.

24 "Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

25 "O righteous Father, although the world has not known You, yet I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me; 26 and I have made Your name known to them, and will make it known, so that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them." NASB
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Water Baptism is explained in Romans chapter Six...

BW

I am curious as to why you say water baptism is explained in Romans 6.

Especially after you explained, (correctly I may add) that, "The word Baptize is not limited only to mean water immersion."
This clearly says the baptism was into death. Christ's death which settled the sin issue once for all. I would say this clearly explains the baptism into Christ, which is not by water, but through faith and performed by the Holy Sprirt.

1 Cor. 12:13
For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free--and we were all given the one Spirit to drink

jlay wrote:BW

I am curious as to why you say water baptism is explained in Romans 6.

Especially after you explained, (correctly I may add) that, "The word Baptize is not limited only to mean water immersion."
This clearly says the baptism was into death. Christ's death which settled the sin issue once for all. I would say this clearly explains the baptism into Christ, which is not by water, but through faith and performed by the Holy Sprirt.

1 Cor. 12:13
For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free--and we were all given the one Spirit to drink

That's how I read Vincent's Word Studies as why I said Romans 6 refers to water Baptism. Also, what is taught from the Southern Baptist perspective on Romans 6 too that H2o dunking represents being buried with Christ and resurrected with him etc and etc…
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As a Reformed Southern Baptist, I think they are wrong. Yes, it does represent it to Southern Baptist, but I do not think this was Pauls' intention. I don't have a real big issue with SBs doing this.

jlay wrote:As a Reformed Southern Baptist, I think they are wrong. Yes, it does represent it to Southern Baptist, but I do not think this was Pauls' intention. I don't have a real big issue with SBs doing this.

Would be interesting what the Reformed Southern Baptist view on Romans six is...

As long as others are willing to learn aand not split hairs or try to part the waters like Moses
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Well since you asked.

Water baptism definately had a significant if not essential role, particulary for Israel and their identification with repentence. That of preparing to receive something new. Repentence is abandoning an old way of thinking to embrace a new.

When I say reformed I am not using that as an official position. Only to say that I no longer hold to some of the Southern Baptist's views, particularly on this issue. For the most part Baptists do not hold to water baptism as 'contributing' to salvaiton. It is an ordinance, and one that is an outward profession which seeks to identify one as a believer in Christ. They do refer to Rom. 6 in the language of Baptism. "We are buried with him in baptism, and raised to new life......" That is where I find the problem, since at that point they are implying that water baptism is the baptism. It is a bit of a contradiction, if Paul is in fact referring to water in chapter 6.

Obviously based on the context, the issue is death, which is brought up in Chapter 5. nd since we already know from Chapter 5 that we are justified through faith, the person being water baptized has already been baptized into His death. Which is good since He tasted death for every man. (Heb. 2:9)

jlay wrote:Well since you asked.

Water baptism definately had a significant if not essential role, particulary for Israel and their identification with repentence. That of preparing to receive something new. Repentence is abandoning an old way of thinking to embrace a new.

When I say reformed I am not using that as an official position. Only to say that I no longer hold to some of the Southern Baptist's views, particularly on this issue. For the most part Baptists do not hold to water baptism as 'contributing' to salvaiton. It is an ordinance, and one that is an outward profession which seeks to identify one as a believer in Christ. They do refer to Rom. 6 in the language of Baptism. "We are buried with him in baptism, and raised to new life......" That is where I find the problem, since at that point they are implying that water baptism is the baptism. It is a bit of a contradiction, if Paul is in fact referring to water in chapter 6.

Obviously based on the context, the issue is death, which is brought up in Chapter 5. nd since we already know from Chapter 5 that we are justified through faith, the person being water baptized has already been baptized into His death. Which is good since He tasted death for every man. (Heb. 2:9)

I agree, it is an ordinance as you stated. Also, Romans six also refers to not being a slave to sin too. I think the easiest way to explain water Baptism is to phrase it - I want to change my life, follow Christ, and begin saying (and do'in) NO to the world's ways.

Also, to sum up what Paul was saying in Romans Chapter Six, has to do with identfying with the power that Christ's death has over our old man so we can learn to rise and walk in the new man being shaped to reflect Jesus by the power that raised Christ from the dead in our lives.
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Thanks for the replies.

Since we know by Scriptures that Baptism was important to Paul and that Paul did baptise, I now see no violation of the Great Commission.

We don't know exactly what Jesus told Paul. He was not an apostle when the Great Commission was given.

It is the Gospel that saves, not the act of baptism.

C2,

It is important to note that the word Gospel is also like the word baptism. Gospel simply means good news or glad tidings. The Gospel is the message, or a message. Some want to equate all uses of the Word Gospel to mean the exact same thing. Just as some want to equate baptism to water every time it is mentioned.

jlay wrote:C2,

It is important to note that the word Gospel is also like the word baptism. Gospel simply means good news or glad tidings. The Gospel is the message, or a message. Some want to equate all uses of the Word Gospel to mean the exact same thing. Just as some want to equate baptism to water every time it is mentioned.

Thanks. I have a better understanding now that I have read the following article:

http://www.bible.ca/baptism-objections- ... notbaptize

Search for:

"Christ Did Not Send Me to Baptize"

if you would like to read it.

A better understanding?? I'd run from that teaching.

That article states that WATER baptism is absolutely ESSENTIAL/MANDATORY for salvation. In fact they make the very error that BW and myself have addressed. They equate every mention of the word baptize to mean the immersion into water. This is a problem since many of these verses actually state Baptism into, or by something else entirely different than water. So, one has to ignore the plain reading of the text and dump water all over the scripture.
If you continue on through the rest of their website, you will see that they also require works that 'prove' you are saved. They totally butcher the definition and meaning of repentance as well. And, they most certainly equate full immersion, with the right words said over you, as what actually washes away sin.
Which says basically that the sin problem is not actually resovled by Christ at the cross. It is conditional to an ordinance. They even state that a BELEIVER, who is not fully immersed by proper adminstration of water baptism is NOT SAVED. Can you believe that? A believer is not saved?? And they also state that your ultimate salvation is up to your continued faithfulness such as attending church (their church of course) every Sunday. It's right there in their website. Your church attendence, or lack their of, can keep or lose your salvation. So, salvation in their mind is NOT by faith alone, but faith is one of many of your duties to perform to keep and maintain your saved status. This is a mess of doctrine my friend.
I'd be real careful with what you google.

http://www.duluthbible.org/165732.ihtml
Click on this link and then click on the article, Seven Key Questions about Water Baptism.