Evidence for God from Science

It is written that Christ paid the ransom of our sins, correct?
Some say he paid the ransom to the devil others say to God.
The notion of having to pay a ransom TO SOMEONE, while not universal, is very common.
Was Christ's ransom payment muck like the sacrifice to God for forgiveness of Our sins? some view it as such.
Some view it as the Devil has power over us bcause of our fall and the only way to lose that power was to take a Human life that had NO SIN, which is what happened in Christ and as such, the devil lost his claim over our souls.

Thoughts?

Here's a little about the Ransom theory of atonement, which says the ransom was paid to Satan, from Wikipedia:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ransom_theory_of_atonement

And here's an article from GotQuestions that says the ransom was paid to God:http://www.gotquestions.org/ransom.html


For reference, here's some info about the Atonement of Christ, and different Theories of Atonement:http://www.theopedia.com/Atonement_of_Christ

This here:

In Orthodox theology generally it can be said that the language of 'payment' and 'ransom' is rather understood as a metaphorical and symbolical way of saying that Christ has done all things necessary to save and redeem mankind enslaved to the devil, sin and death, and under the wrath of God. He 'paid the price, not in some legalistic or juridical or economic meaning. He "paid the price" not to the devil whose rights over man were won by deceit and tyranny. He 'paid the price' not to God the Father in the sense that God delights in His sufferings and received 'satisfaction' from His creatures in Him. He 'paid the price' rather, we might say, to Reality Itself. He 'paid the price' to create the conditions in and through which man might receive the forgiveness of sins and eternal life by dying and rising again in Him to newness of life. (See Romans 5:8 and Galatians 2:4 By dying on the cross and rising from the dead, Jesus Christ cleansed the world from evil and sin. He defeated the devil 'in his own territory' and on 'his own terms.' The 'wages of sin is death'.Romans 6:23 So the Son of God became man and took upon Himself the sins of the world and died a voluntary death. By His sinless and innocent death accomplished entirely by His free will—and not by physical, moral, or juridical necessity—He made death to die and to become itself the source and the way into life eternal."[7]

Was my understanding also. That ransom means to US NOW that a debt must be paid to someone, didn't mean that was the case when the Writers used ransom as an analogy of sorts. I agree with Alasiter Mcgrath when he said that the analogy was take too far and a "debtor" was viewed as being needed, someone to pay the ransom to.

I often viewed it this way ( again in my opinion):
A child is sick and dying ( Humans)
The parent ( Christ) has the power to put that sickness on to himself and save the child
The parent pays the price for this ( ransom) and dies ( sacrfice) and the child has a second chance at life.
A price is paid ( to no one really) and the sacrifice is made to give life to another.

PaulSacramento wrote:It is written that Christ paid the ransom of our sins, correct? Some say he paid the ransom to the devil others say to God.The notion of having to pay a ransom TO SOMEONE, while not universal, is very common.

When you break the law (commandments) of the ruling power whether it be God or the government in real life, who would you have to pay for your indescretion? I once broke the law by speeding and I had to pay the government who made the law for that indescretion.
So essentially you can only offer a payment for an indescretion to that power who was able to invoke and enforce the law.

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

God gave the 10 commandments so that we would understand what it meant to break the law. Sin is the transgressing of God's laws.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death
Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

PaulSacramento wrote:Was Christ's ransom payment much like the sacrifice to God for forgiveness of Our sins? some view it as such.
Some view it as the Devil has power over us bcause of our fall and the only way to lose that power was to take a Human life that had NO SIN, which is what happened in Christ and as such, the devil lost his claim over our souls. Thoughts?

Christ's sacrifice was a sacrifice to his father so that those who have sinned and turned from sinning can be saved from being completely lost.

Exo 30:12 ...then shall they give every man a ransom for his soul unto the LORD

Psa 49:7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him...

Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities...
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Isa 53:8 ...for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin...

Lev 5:17 And if a soul sin, and commit any of these things which are forbidden to be done by the commandments of the LORD; though he wist it not, yet is he guilty, and shall bear his iniquity.
Lev 5:18 And he shall bring a ram without blemish out of the flock, with thy estimation, for a trespass offering, unto the priest: and the priest shall make an atonement for him concerning his ignorance wherein he erred and wist it not, and it shall be forgiven him.
Lev 5:19 It is a trespass offering: he hath certainly trespassed against the LORD.

The Devil cannot have a claim on a soul. Our souls, the breath of life, was God given and only God has the power to take it back. Satan is simply the opposer, the one who accuses us of being ungodly. He wants to prove that God's creation was less than perfect. Satan and his followers only have the power that God grants them.

KBCkid,
so in your view that ransom was paid to God?

Here is a simple wikipedia link that sums up the various Ransom theories and the end quote from it...

....A catechism of the Orthodox Church in America states:

In Orthodox theology generally it can be said that the language of 'payment' and 'ransom' is rather understood as a metaphorical and symbolical way of saying that Christ has done all things necessary to save and redeem mankind enslaved to the devil, sin and death, and under the wrath of God. He 'paid the price, not in some legalistic or juridical or economic meaning. He "paid the price" not to the devil whose rights over man were won by deceit and tyranny. He 'paid the price' not to God the Father in the sense that God delights in His sufferings and received 'satisfaction' from His creatures in Him. He 'paid the price' rather, we might say, to Reality Itself. He 'paid the price' to create the conditions in and through which man might receive the forgiveness of sins and eternal life by dying and rising again in Him to newness of life. (See Romans 5:8 and Galatians 2:4 By dying on the cross and rising from the dead, Jesus Christ cleansed the world from evil and sin. He defeated the devil 'in his own territory' and on 'his own terms.' The 'wages of sin is death'. Romans 6:23 So the Son of God became man and took upon Himself the sins of the world and died a voluntary death. By His sinless and innocent death accomplished entirely by His free will—and not by physical, moral, or juridical necessity—He made death to die and to become itself the source and the way into life eternal."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ransom_theory_of_atonement

This will be controversial but it appears to me, Jesus paid the ransom that proves God’s love true. He paid a ransom to love so to speak…paid the way into eternal life.

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I agree with that understanding also BW.

PaulSacramento wrote:KBCkid, so in your view that ransom was paid to God?

It is my view based on scripture which is why I added the scriptures that were relevant such as;
Exodus 30:12 ...then shall they give every man a ransom for his soul unto the LORD
Exodus 30:14 Every one that passeth among them that are numbered, from twenty years old and above, shall give an offering unto the LORD.
Exodus 30:15 The rich shall not give more, and the poor shall not give less than half a shekel, when they give an offering unto the LORD, to make an atonement for your souls.

I mean really, doesn't exodus 30:12 state in clear and concise language, "they give every man a ransom for his soul unto the LORD". How many possible ways can that be interpreted? A good reading of the old testament should make it clear that every sin offering was "unto the lord" and that sin was the act of breaking Gods laws. At no time or place in scripture can one state that an offering for sin was offered to satan. So I am quite comfortable in drawing a line in the sand and stating that the bible defines the law giver (God) and the law breakers (everyone else) and that sin is the breaking of the law givers laws and that every sacrifice that was ordered by the law giver was demanded to be given to him.
All that agree say 'I' and all who disagree provide some evidence to the contrary.

Let me further point to this verse; Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned...

Do we all agree that the one man was Adam? do we all agree that Adams sin was to break the commandment God gave for not eating the forbidden fruit?
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
So if Adam broke the rule God made who else could accept a sin offering except the Rule maker who defined the punishment for breaking his rule?. This should be an open and shut discussion here as there are no other scriptures that point to a sacrifice being offered to anyone anywhere at any time other than the rule maker God.

Exodus 32:30 And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses said unto the people, Ye have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the LORD; peradventure I shall make an atonement for your sin.
Leviticus 5:6 And he shall bring his trespass offering unto the LORD for his sin which he hath sinned, a female from the flock, a lamb or a kid of the goats, for a sin offering; and the priest shall make an atonement for him concerning his sin.
Numbers 6:14 And he shall offer his offering unto the LORD, one he lamb of the first year without blemish for a burnt offering, and one ewe lamb of the first year without blemish for a sin offering...
Numbers 8:12 And the Levites shall lay their hands upon the heads of the bullocks: and thou shalt offer the one for a sin offering, and the other for a burnt offering, unto the LORDNumbers 15:24 ...all the congregation shall offer one young bullock for a burnt offering, for a sweet savour unto the LORD, with his meat offering, and his drink offering, according to the manner, and one kid of the goats for a sin offering.
Numbers 18:9 ...every sin offering of theirs, and every trespass offering of theirs, which they shall render unto me, shall be most holy for thee and for thy sons.
Numbers 28:15 And one kid of the goats for a sin offering unto the LORD shall be offered...

Mat_20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Mar_10:45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

1Ti_2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

The Greek word means "a price for redemption". God was the One who demanded our lives for our sins.

Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The price for our redemption therefore had to be paid to God. Through the death of Christ the enemies of God are able to be reconciled to Him.

So, for those that see the ransom being paid to God, because of our sins, Jesus ( who is by nature God) paid the "wages" of those sins in his death and paid them to God ( with whom He is God), correct?
And you base that, typically, on the OT passages that refer to the sacrificial system of the OT ( where a person would offer a sacrifice to God because they had sinned), correct?

I spent some time a while back studying "Christus Victor" which is a "Ransom theory." Today, most Western Christians hold to the substitutionary atonement theory popularized by Anslem. These are often contrasted against each other, when I think in fact that are two sides to the same coin. When the Bible says, "Christ died for our sins," it is hard to ignore the penalty aspect. And it is also difficult to ignore the bigger picture of redemption in the ransom theory. One being that we are victims and captives of sin, and yet also culpable.

PaulSacramento wrote:So, for those that see the ransom being paid to God, because of our sins, Jesus ( who is by nature God) paid the "wages" of those sins in his death and paid them to God ( with whom He is God), correct?
And you base that, typically, on the OT passages that refer to the sacrificial system of the OT ( where a person would offer a sacrifice to God because they had sinned), correct?

You do realise that the old testament sacrificial laws were a temporary fix put in place until Christ came to give the one time acceptable sacrifice for sin? Whether it be old testament sins or new testament sins the fact remains that sin is the breaking of God's commandments. He made the laws and he defined the payment required for it. There is no one else that a ransom can be paid to.
Now this is a good point on God paying a ransom to himself. This is where it must be understood that Christ and his father are two separate entities. God the father defined the laws and the cost for breaking them, Christ chose to become that payment for us to his father. Even though God the father and Christ are one in spirit and thus act as one governing entity the fact that they are two separate beings allows for one to pay the other. Christ ultimately was given the power to choose whether he would sacrifice himself in our place to save our souls, read it for yourself;

John 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
John 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Do you see it plainly stated by Christ that his father commanded that he be given the power to make his own choice? There is very little room for interpretational error here. Look at in a point by point fashion;

1) Christ's God (the father) told Christ directly that he is granted the power to give his life
2) Christ's God (the father) told Christ directly that he is granted the power to take back his life
3) Christ states that no man has the power to take his life. He is choosing to give his life of his own accord
4) Christ's decision to lay down his life makes his father / his God love him.

It would be quite a twist of wording to interpret these things any other way.

That Christ gave himself for us is not an issue nor that God the Father and God the Son are two different "people".
The "debate" is to WHOM the ransom was paid and it is, of course, not that clear ( hence various views on the matter).
Exodus 30:12 is an interesting choice since what is being discussed is the "payment" that each adult Israel is to make to the temple ( temple tax).
Soul being used in terms of "living person".

11 The LORD also spoke to Moses, saying, 12 “When you take a [l]census of the sons of Israel [m]to number them, then each one of them shall give a ransom for [n]himself to the LORD, when you [o]number them, so that there will be no plague among them when you [p]number them. 13 This is what everyone who [q]is numbered shall give: half a shekel according to the shekel of the sanctuary (the shekel is twenty gerahs), half a shekel as a [r]contribution to the LORD. 14 Everyone who is numbered, from twenty years old and over, shall give the [t]contribution to the LORD. 15 The rich shall not pay more and the poor shall not pay less than the half shekel, when you give the contribution to the LORD to make atonement for [v]yourselves. 16 You shall take the atonement money from the sons of Israel and shall give it for the service of the tent of meeting, that it may be a memorial for the sons of Israel before the LORD, to make atonement for [w]yourselves.”

I am not sure we can use that as "evidence" that the ransom of ALL OUR sins was paid to God since, according to what was written in Exodus, only those 20 years and over pay.

But you are right that the sacrifical system was obsolete and it was such even BEFORE Christ paid the price for Our Sins, actually the temple system in of itself was obsolete the moment Jesus came to be.

But back on the topic at hand.
I think the question is, why would God demand of his Son a payment to Himself that could be simply "written off" by Himself?

PaulSacramento wrote:So, for those that see the ransom being paid to God, because of our sins, Jesus ( who is by nature God) paid the "wages" of those sins in his death and paid them to God ( with whom He is God), correct?
And you base that, typically, on the OT passages that refer to the sacrificial system of the OT ( where a person would offer a sacrifice to God because they had sinned), correct?

It isn't because of "our sins". It is because of our sin nature into which each person is born as an inheritance of the nature of Adam. Adam sinned against God, the debt was owed to God and we have to pay it.

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Christ took our debt and our sin upon Himself and died in our place. He paid the debt to God to whom it was owed.

That Christ gave Himself for us is the issue because it was He who paid the price.

RickD wrote:Here's a little about the Ransom theory of atonement, which says the ransom was paid to Satan, from Wikipedia:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ransom_theory_of_atonement

And here's an article from GotQuestions that says the ransom was paid to God:http://www.gotquestions.org/ransom.html


For reference, here's some info about the Atonement of Christ, and different Theories of Atonement:http://www.theopedia.com/Atonement_of_Christ

I just finished reading the wiki link. From the opening description I thought "this sounds familiar". Right on! further down we see Word of Faith mentioned. 'nuff said"