Evidence for God from Science

Acts5:1-5:
1But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession, 2and kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet. 3But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thy heart to lie to the Holy Spirit, and to keep back part of the price of the land? 4While it remained, did it not remain thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thy power? How is it that thou hast conceived this thing in thy heart? thou has not lied unto men, but unto God. 5And Ananias hearing these words fell down and gave up the ghost: and great fear came upon all that heard it.

Many questions arose in my mind reading that part.

First, I was thinking whether Ananias was a true believer. I think that not. Otherwise he would give the whole possesion. But why he came to give at least something? What would have happened if he hadn't come at all? I think he came because of possible sociatical pressure. You know, people would know that he did not come and would be staring at him and rumours would be all over. So he decided to come and to pretend that he gave everything.

Second, did he have to die? Isn't that too cruel? Since he was not a true believer he would go to hell. Is this love? Why apostles did not give him a lecture only? Why his death? He could have been surprised about how apostles had known he was not giving the whole possesion (they knew it from God) and he could finally repent and thus be saved.

He died because he was caught in his sin and trying to deceive others, when confronted with his deceit he, buy the description, had an attack of sorts (probably a hear attack) and died.
Samething happend to his wife.
If one choose to read that they were punished by the HS for trying to deceive everyone, one can certainly read it that way.
But nowhere does it say that the HS or God or anyone struck them down.

Acts 5
Fate of Ananias and Sapphira
1 But a man named Ananias, with his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of property, 2 and kept back some of the price for himself, with his wife’s [a]full knowledge, and bringing a portion of it, he laid it at the apostles’ feet. 3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land? 4 While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have [c]conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.” 5 And as he heard these words, Ananias fell down and breathed his last; and great fear came over all who heard of it. 6 The young men got up and covered him up, and after carrying him out, they buried him.

7 Now there elapsed an interval of about three hours, and his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. 8 And Peter responded to her, “Tell me whether you sold the land [d]for such and such a price?” And she said, “Yes, [e]that was the price.” 9 Then Peter said to her, “Why is it that you have agreed together to put the Spirit of the Lord to the test? Behold, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out as well.” 10 And immediately she fell at his feet and breathed her last, and the young men came in and found her dead, and they carried her out and buried her beside her husband. 11 And great fear came over the whole church, and over all who heard of these things.

First, I was thinking whether Ananias was a true believer. I think that not. Otherwise he would give the whole possesion. But why he came to give at least something? What would have happened if he hadn't come at all? I think he came because of possible sociatical pressure. You know, people would know that he did not come and would be staring at him and rumours would be all over. So he decided to come and to pretend that he gave everything.

Have you ever held anything back from God? Ever sang the song, "I surrender all," but you really hadn't? (Guilty)
The little flock was operating under a different program. Unless you see people dropping dead in similar situations today. During this time the HS came baptizing the beleivers with power and authority. People were being miraculously healed, freed from prisons, etc. The little flock was operating at perfect community. You could say it was divine socialism. Not something to mess with as Ananias found out.

It seems like a hard penalty, doesn't it? I'm glad God doesn't zap me dead every time I do something deceitful. Although a few points I try to remember about it-

1. It was a very serious crime that they committed here. Lying to God for his own gain is pretty bad, especially if you go through all the different implications.

2. These deaths have served as powerful reminders to the church then and throughout the rest of history, so it wasn't an isolated event.

I think it should also be pointed out that we (or at least I) don't know the background. Maybe these people had been lying and hurting people for years, maybe they were true believers who made a mistake and were punished but will still be given an eternal reward. As is often (ok, always) the case, I don't have enough knowledge to say that God did wrong here. There may very well have been many other circumstances that we aren't aware of, in fact I'd guess there were.

jlay wrote: Have you ever held anything back from God? Ever sang the song, "I surrender all," but you really hadn't? (Guilty)

Yes I did hold. I have money I could give to church. No, did not sing that song. I do not know it. And I would not sing it since I would know I am singing a lie with full mouth open.
Thank you for asking that question. I forgot to ask in my previous post, how much we should keep for ourselves and how much to give away?

narnia4 wrote: It seems like a hard penalty, doesn't it? I'm glad God doesn't zap me dead every time I do something deceitful.

Me too.

narnia4 wrote: I think it should also be pointed out that we (or at least I) don't know the background. Maybe these people had been lying and hurting people for years, maybe they were true believers who made a mistake and were punished but will still be given an eternal reward. As is often (ok, always) the case, I don't have enough knowledge to say that God did wrong here. There may very well have been many other circumstances that we aren't aware of, in fact I'd guess there were.

Maybe B.W. knows more.

Yes, we never know the whole truth. I was just curious about the message of that 5 verses. Thanks for the answers.

1over137 wrote:

jlay wrote: Have you ever held anything back from God? Ever sang the song, "I surrender all," but you really hadn't? (Guilty)

Yes I did hold. I have money I could give to church. No, did not sing that song. I do not know it. And I would not sing it since I would know I am singing a lie with full mouth open.
Thank you for asking that question. I forgot to ask in my previous post, how much we should keep for ourselves and how much to give away?

narnia4 wrote: It seems like a hard penalty, doesn't it? I'm glad God doesn't zap me dead every time I do something deceitful.

Me too.

narnia4 wrote:
I think it should also be pointed out that we (or at least I) don't know the background. Maybe these people had been lying and hurting people for years, maybe they were true believers who made a mistake and were punished but will still be given an eternal reward. As is often (ok, always) the case, I don't have enough knowledge to say that God did wrong here. There may very well have been many other circumstances that we aren't aware of, in fact I'd guess there were.

Maybe B.W. knows more.

Yes, we never know the whole truth. I was just curious about the message of that 5 verses. Thanks for the answers.

I am not sure what I can add here. Acts 5:1-11 begins in Acts 4:31-37 and this appears to be a onetime event as elsewhere in Acts, Paul raised money to send to the Jerusalem Church and other places outside Israel did not have this practice mentioned. The Jerusalem Church underwent great persecution. Stephan’s martyrdom illustrates the hate directed at the Jerusalem Church at that time. The practice mentioned could have been a matter of necessity for survival.

Since Paul and others raised funds to send to Jerusalem Church – goes to show you, the socialist model does not work. Someone has to always give to support it and when there are no more people to keep giving, what then? I really do not think this was a socialist utopian model but rather a gospel supporting and spreading event of cheerful givers. The concern was to reach out and spread the gospel because the people loved Christ and each other. They gave to proven ministers too and what they had, by the time of 67-68 AD, allowed them to survive when they fled to escape the Roman army in other lands.
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I forgot to ask in my previous post, how much we should keep for ourselves and how much to give away?

2 Cor. 9:7
I think the better question today, is where to give.

jlay wrote:

I forgot to ask in my previous post, how much we should keep for ourselves and how much to give away?

2 Cor. 9:7
I think the better question today, is where to give.

That's a great point, jlay. We must use discernment when we give. As cynical as this sounds, churches down here are BIG money. Wherever you choose to give, God knows your heart, and intent. Many times we give to a cause that we believe is upstanding, only to find out later, that they were improperly using the money entrusted to them.

I know exactly where to send my money. To my old wise friend who is a missionaire in my country and who I several times mentioned on this forum. He works for Mission to The World (MTW), travelled the whole world and currently is in Slovakia. He already established three churches in three big cities here in Slovakia and now is working with Gypsy people who really live in poverty.

Hana, I'm glad you found a mission group to can trust. Those missionary/feed the world organizations, have a bad reputation of using most of the donation money to pay employees.

1over137 wrote:I know exactly where to send my money. To my old wise friend who is a missionaire in my country and who I several times mentioned on this forum. He works for Mission to The World (MTW), travelled the whole world and currently is in Slovakia. He already established three churches in three big cities here in Slovakia and now is working with Gypsy people who really live in poverty.

Awesome!!