Evidence for God from Science

I'm not going to argue that the Bible condemns homosexuality, I get that it does. However, I watched part of an anti-gay speech recently where the speaker explicitly included transgender people and "so on" to the group that he said the Bible condemned. I've also read recently that people who are naturally sterile fall into this group "according to the Bible."

The Bible is certainly not explicit when it comes to transgender people, people with no gender, people with both types of sex organs, those with severe chemical/hormone imbalances...So, I guess my question is, what does the Bible and Christianity have to say about these people? As far as I can tell, the answer is nothing, unless you make a rather severe inference.

I only see it as wrong is when it is intentional. For example: Male wants to turn into a female. That to me is wrong/immoral. But, if they are born like that, I don't see where it's a sin; or that they're bad. It wasn't their fault to begin with.

The Bible says all have sinned and come short, have missed the mark. That includes me, you, transgenders, little old ladies who bake apple pies for the poor...the list is endless.

FL

However, I watched part of an anti-gay speech recently where the speaker explicitly included transgender people and "so on" to the group that he said the Bible condemned.

Where does the bible condemn them? Book, chapter, and verse? I've never seen it before.

I've also read recently that people who are naturally sterile fall into this group "according to the Bible."

Wow, I'd like to see the scripture twisting used to come up with that!

what does the Bible and Christianity have to say about these people?

Only that they are included in the term, "people". And for that, they are sinners like the rest of us. In need of a savior, like the rest of us.

Ivellious, may I ask who was giving this speech?

He was a successful college football coach who got in the news recently for speaking out against a bill or law in his home state that would protect homosexuals, transsexuals and so on from discrimination in schools and the workplace. He was under some scrutiny for using players on the team in his speech and some people questioned whether he should have advertised his place as a football coach for a public school (which accepts LGBTs and has an anti-discrimination clause for them already). Basically, some people were upset at the idea that he made it seem like his opinion was that of the university. I forget his name, but he coaches at the University of Nebraska I think. He gets paid to give motivational and Christian-themed speeches, and is a well-respected coach.

I don't think the Bible explicitly mentions transgenders or any other sexually-ambiguous groups. There was no such thing as "transgender" at the time and certainly they had no idea about biology or hormone imbalances or the inner anatomy of people who may have had multiple (or no) sexual organs. This guy's speech just included them in that category with homosexuals and I have read before that the justification is typically along the lines of "just like gays, they can't reproduce, and because they had no name for them back then, they just couldn't identify them specifically. Therefore, it is logical extension of the Bible based on new information." Not saying I agree with that being logic, but that's probably what this guy was teaching.

Ivellious

Those born with no sex organs or both sex organs may be able to choose a gender path if they are lucky and so inclined; and, if they are fortunate enough to find an intimate relationship, the public is generally empathetic toward them. However, people who feel they are born with the wrong sex organs are often not as easily understood; neither or they as easily characterized. The many possibilities raise interesting questions.

Would modifying one’s body to pursue a heterosexual relationship (in physical appearance) be enough to bring it within the guidelines of Biblical teachings? If a couple looked like man and woman, and claimed they felt like man and woman, would that make their relationship less repulsive to those who choose to condemn?

There was a doctor featured on the Discovery Channel (I think) who had a M2F operation so that he could pursue a lesbian relationship. Was that ok? After all, (technically) he was a genetic male pursuing a genetic female. So, Biblically speaking, were they heterosexual? Or, being that they had the physical appearance of two females, would the Bible consider their intimate union to be homosexual?

Perhaps one solution would be to simply condemn out of hand all transsexual body alterations. Would the Bible support that? According to Bible teachings, is it acceptable, or is it considered a sin, to alter one’s body for no other reason than the owner finds it objectionable? That is, if one’s secondary sex characteristics, or maybe a stray tumor, (or even one’s hands or feet), should offend them, would it be ok to have the offending part(s) removed?

Unfortunately, (or fortunately, however you look at it), the Bible does not give us complete and crystal-clear answers to all possible questions. And you are certainly right that the Bible is not explicit regarding the many varied problems of gender confusion. Nonetheless, some Bible proponents seem to have no trouble finding a way to have the Bible say whatever it is that they would like it to say. Perhaps your speaker was one of these.

If for personal reasons you are seeking an answer in Christian terms, and you trust your intuition, you might ask yourself: What would Jesus say?

A generous viewpoint that one could choose to take and defend, particularly in the situation where a person is changing their sex for the purpose of pursuing a male/female relationship, could be to see that person as someone who is doing all they can (and more than most people would do) to comply with Bible tradition.

Theres like, a billion diffrent flavors of sin.


This is just one of many.

Isn't there a difference between transgender and transexual? From a gender studies class I took a year ago, I remember that a transexual is one who has ambigous genitals or willingly crosses over to the other sex, while a transgender person is one who belongs to one sex (male/female) but identifies with the other gender (masculine/femine). Often times it's transgender people who get sex change operations because they feel that they have the brain of the opposite sex than the body they were born with. Who knows if thats the real reason.

It's a tough subject to tackle. It's easy to initially say that one shouldn't try to change the sex that they are because it's playing God, but at the same time one can't help but wonder why certain people feel so strongly that they need to be the opposite sex. For people born with both ambiguous genitals, I can't imagine that there's any sin involved there since they had no choice in the matter. If I felt the strong impulse to be a female, I would refrain from undergoing any operation for sure, but I don't feel like I can pass judgement on people who do.

coldblood wrote:“A billion flavors of sin” - what a wonderful example, (colorful too), of condemnation by the shotgun approach.

So you liked my "shotgun" eh?

Wait till you see my double barreled shotty. LOL


Just because i don't explain my examination in a profoundly intellectual manner doesn't mean that its any less considerable. If you wanna think so, cool story bro, but i'm not about to type out an essay just because of what you think of my "shotgun".

Here, chew on this, maybe you can come up with another cool label for it.

"I think its immoral and disgusting"

but uhh..... .... im sure you catch my drift.