Evidence for God from Science

Fundamental question that I have a hard time determining. Answers like the ones found in gotquestions.org also didn't satisfy me.

Mariolee wrote:Fundamental question that I have a hard time determining. Answers like the ones found in gotquestions.org also didn't satisfy me.

Harden Pharoahs heart is more like an expression I think. It means that the Pharoah was dead set against the release of the slaves and so God used that for the good. I think it just means God plan being implement dispite the stubborness of man.

Silvertusk wrote:

Mariolee wrote:Fundamental question that I have a hard time determining. Answers like the ones found in gotquestions.org also didn't satisfy me.

Harden Pharoahs heart is more like an expression I think. It means that the Pharoah was dead set against the release of the slaves and so God used that for the good. I think it just means God plan being implement dispite the stubborness of man.

So what if Pharoah had decided not to harden his own heart, do you think he would have foiled God's redemption plan? Oh Danny where art thou!

I believe this is the gotquestions page you are referring to:

http://www.gotquestions.org/God-harden- ... heart.html

I think we can see that God hardened Pharaohs heart, because God knew that Pharoah had already hardened his own heart.
Or, you can see it from a Calvinistic perspective, where God chose Pharoah, hardened his heart, without Pharoah having any say in it, and used Pharoah to accomplish His will.
I believe gotquestions us answering from a Calvinistic perspective.

This is one of those passages that can give the impression of a manipulative and cruel God:
If God hadn't hardened Pharoah's heart, would there have been less plagues and would he have let the Hebrews go and wouldn't that have saved so many lives?
There is the issue of divine justice in that, God wanted to punish Pharaoh and the Egyptians for what they had done and rightly so and in hardening the heart God was making sure of that BUT the fact that God hardened the heart makes it seem that Pharaoh has no choice ( and be default neither did Egypt).
This could also be viewed in the way that ALL the happens is God's will and that Pharaoh had a hard heart can be viewed as God hardening it since ALL is done by God.
Its a tough call to make and no matter which one we view it can be argued that God caused Pharaoh to NOT let the Hebrews go, thus leading to the plagues culminating in the death of the first born of Egypt.
What truly is the issue is: Was God justified in doing so?

Its a tough call to make and no matter which one we view it can be argued that God caused Pharaoh to NOT let the Hebrews go, thus leading to the plagues culminating in the death of the first born of Egypt.

Paul, if one believes that God knew Pharoahs heart was already hardened, and God also knew(because God is omniscient) that Pharoah would never change his mind, then one can believe God did not cause Pharoah to have a hardened heart. So, I don't think it's necessary to believe God was the cause of Pharoahs hardened heart.

It's a similar case where Judas was predestined to betray Jesus. Did God choose Judas to betray Jesus, without Judas having any say in it? Or, did God know what Judas would ultimately choose to do, and use that, like He used Pharoah?

RickD wrote:

Its a tough call to make and no matter which one we view it can be argued that God caused Pharaoh to NOT let the Hebrews go, thus leading to the plagues culminating in the death of the first born of Egypt.

Paul, if one believes that God knew Pharoahs heart was already hardened, and God also knew(because God is omniscient) that Pharoah would never change his mind, then one can believe God did not cause Pharoah to have a hardened heart. So, I don't think it's necessary to believe God was the cause of Pharoahs hardened heart.

It's a similar case where Judas was predestined to betray Jesus. Did God choose Judas to betray Jesus, without Judas having any say in it? Or, did God know what Judas would ultimately choose to do, and use that, like He used Pharoah?

Oh I agree Rick and this could be a simple case of the writer of Exodus writing in a way that the Hebrews understood but that cause us some confusion.
Still, if one is to take that passage from Exodus literally then it seems that God hardened Pharaohs heart and if God had to harden it that means that it wasn't (or at least not enough).

Its interesting that there are ten references to "God hardening Pharaoh's heart" and ten references to Pharaoh hardening his own heart.

An in-depth conversation really should include discussions on the original language and really go through an entire exegetical process to best determine the meaning of those passages. But I'll give some initial, general thoughts.

I think we can all agree that God uses "bad things for good" all the time. Where a Calvinist and some other parties may disagree is whether God can (or will) determine that someone will do wrong and what that actually means. Part of the struggle people have emotionally and intellectually is that God allows or determines that evil will happen. The hardening of Pharaoh's heart is a case that comes up often because the Scripture is so blatant about it, but if you think about it the "greater good" that came out of it is pretty obvious. God's sovereign plan was carried out in a powerful and very important way because of the hardening of Pharaoh's heart. Now Pharaoh is obviously held responsible for his sins, but what responsibility you place on God is a big discussion that's been talked about a lot on this forum and can't be resolved in discussing this topic imo.

In one sense God does the same thing to all. Since man is free (can of worms) to receive or reject the Gospel today,

God will override the will of man to execute his decretive will. This doesn't mean man doesn't have free will. For example, although Jonah chose to flee Ninevah, God forced His hand. He overrode His will. That doesn't mean he manipulated his will. Jonah's will never changed, but his actions sure did. God manipulated the circumstances to insure his decretive will would happen. Within His soverignty God still permitted Jonah to flee.
Balaam desired to pronounce a curse on Israel, but when he opened his mouth, out came a blessing. It doesn't mean that Balaam's will was manipulated, but his tongue was for sure.
In fact, we could even ask, what does 'heart' mean? Obviously we have to speculate, but I don't think we should speculate beyond what we know regarding the operation of God.

Two things

First, the text does say by what means God hardened Pharaoh's heart (cf. 2 Sam 24:1 and 1 Chron 21:1). So to just assume that God is overriding Pharaoh's free will here is to read more into the text than is there. The reason we can't say more on the subject is that the text doesn't tell us. But why doesn't it? Because that isn't the point of the text! We often create unnecessary problems by focusing in on a problem without doing a proper, contextual exegesis and seeing what the actual point of the text is, because very often, that point will at least help shed some light on the situation.

Second, given the above, Ex 3:19-20 and 5:2 becomes particularly important. 3:19 makes it clear that Pharaoh's heart is already set against the people. Since, exegetically, this is a story about the omnipotence and sovereignty of God (remember that Egypt was the most powerful nation on earth at the time--that means if God can overcome the Pharaoh, He is the true God!) and therefore His trustworthiness. 5:2 is important because it shows that Pharaoh has no respect for Yahweh. He's not asking there an information question. He was the king of Egypt. He knew the identity of Yahweh as the God of Israel. He was asking why he should bother obeying Him. That's what the ten plagues are an answer to--and not just to him, but to all of Israel.

Given all this, while there is no definitive answer in the text, it seems to me that God used Pharaoh's stubbornness to teach His own people something. Whether God directly caused Pharaoh's heart to be hardened or allowed it to happen or sent demons to do it or whatever, God's sovereignty is in view so the text (rightly) attributes the act to God. Philosophically, that is correct, as God is the primary cause of all of our actions (since He is the primary cause of everything), and yet without sin (for He wills in accordance with the nature of the thing). Given all that, the text suggests to me what I have elsewhere called a judicial hardening of the heart. Having rejected the truth, God "sealed" Pharaoh in his error. That's typical, I believe, of Hell, for what it is worth.

As C.S. Lewis once said (and I'm paraphrasing here), God is the kind of God who either you say to Him, Thy will be done, or He says to you, thy will be done.

edit:

By the way, it helps here to know that the word "harden" literally has the connotation of strengthening. Were I offering a dynamic translation to bring out the force of the word, I would render it, "And I will strengthen Pharaoh's resolve, so that . . ." He's not forcing Pharaoh to do something he doesn't want to. Pharaoh wanted a war with God. God is giving it to him.

In Exodus 4:21 the word harden (Strg 2388) does mean strengthen just as Jac pointed out and is the best way to render this word used in its context.

Strongs Number 2388 from AMG's Word Studies states that

2388 - hāzaq: A verb meaning to be strong, to strengthen, to be courageous, to overpower. This verb is widely used to express the strength of various phenomena, such as the severity of famine (2Kings 25:3; Jer 52:6); the strength of humans to overpower each other: the condition of Pharaoh's heart (Exo 7:13)

Next, have all sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God? If that statement is true, then any idea that Pharaoh was innocent and sin free and God violated Pharaoh’s innocence/free sinlessness free will is in error.

God simply strengthened what was already in Pharaoh’s heart: sin and rebellion. He did so, because he knows everything before anything ever was. He knew this person indentified as Pharaoh would ultimately reject Him, so God chose this person according to God’s Own sovereign will to become Pharaoh so as to make a spectacle out of this person just as Jac and others pointed out.

There is evidence of this type of strengthening found in the New Testament in Romans 1:24. This is based upon God’s all knowing just nature as the principle of God’s foreknowing is brought out in Romans 8:29. God cannot help but foreknow all things because of who and what he is, God.

Humanity could never choose God unless God imposed a choice for human beings to accept Him or reject Him due to the nature of rebellion/sin. God already foreknows that result and orders the world of men/women accordingly, justly, with no violation to any person at all. Job 34:11 NKJV and Job 34:12 NKJV are true.

That is an absolute sense of Justice; way beyond what our mortal mind’s limited definition of justice conceives as justice. God is a God of absolute Justice and is absolutely just to all, even to Pharaoh whom he foreknew would ultimately reject the choices revealed to Pharaoh to accept or reject God. So why not strengthen pharaoh’s heart to resist God’s choices posed before Pharaoh since God already foreknew the ultimate recourse of Pharaoh’s heart? (Please note Job 34:21, 23, 27 and go back and look at the context from verses 21-28 )

Lastly, God designed human beings with reason and desires to reason with Human beings. If not, then he would be guilty of being unjust (Isaiah 1:18 NKJV). Therefore to arbitrarily select due to sovereign whim would be unjust for a just God to perform. God’s ways are far greater than our own ways.
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