Evidence for God from Science

Hi all.

You may have noticed that I am currently reading Acts. There is a verse I now would like to discuss with you:
Acts 13:48: "When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed."

Does that mean that only appointed people believe? And whenever in the Bible I read something like "those who believe will be saved" should I always recall Acts 13:48 and know that only appointed people will be saved because only appointed people will believe?
Further question: When did God decide to appoint those people?

Can meet worms

I think puritan lad would have a field day with this thread.

Commence Calvinism bashing. Just kidding, please keep this civil. Especially the Calvinists.

1over137 wrote:Does that mean that only appointed people believe? When did God decide to appoint those people?

You would do well to get yourself a dictionary and look up the word appoint. Also, it isn't God doing the appointing, but the individuals themselves. Each person makes up his mind to choose Jesus as Lord, or to reject Him. In other words, you commit yourself. God doesn't do it for you beforehand.

Another way of looking at it: many people go to flight school to learn to fly. Most quit after a few lessons. More quit before the written exam. Only a few commit to getting the license: and all who were appointed to succeed fly.

FL

This is an issue of election, and you are likely to get many different opinions.

The problem with most verses is we tend to read our own theology into them. Systematic theology can be beneficial but relies on prooftext. For example a 5-point Calvinist (5PC) would say, "see, this means that God elects unconditionally, and the elect will be regenerated by the HS, then GIVEN faith.
The Bible overall is clear that belief is the response of man, not something pre-programmed into a person. It also makes clear that faith is not a work. (Romans 4:5) It also makes it clear that man is responsible to believe. (John 3:18)

Obviously, how we read or what we read into the text has a big impact.

Examine this translation.
And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

I certainly understand how may 5PC will read the verse this way. One thing to consider is that the Gentiles being offered eternal life is a pretty radical concept to first century Jews. And of course, this verse pertains to the ordination of Gentiles.

FL wrote: You would do well to get yourself a dictionary and look up the word appoint.

Following examples are from http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/appoint:
1. She was appointed professor of chemistry at the university.
2. After his parents died, the boy's uncle was appointed as his guardian.
3. Every year, the group appoints three new members.
4. a committee appointed by Congress
5. the company's newly appointed assistant director

FL wrote: Also, it isn't God doing the appointing, but the individuals themselves.

From what I read on the web I understood that people are appointed by someone. See above.

FL wrote: Another way of looking at it: many people go to flight school to learn to fly. Most quit after a few lessons. More quit before the written exam. Only a few commit to getting the license: and all who were appointed to succeed fly.

Now I got it. The proper Slovak world for appointed people is 'vymenovani' according to your example. It means for example that if you are qualified for some job you can be appointed for that job (She was appointed professor of chemistry at the university). So, believers must first meet certain criteria and only then they are appointed to eternal life. But why that verse is written in the way it is written ... and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed? Notice the order of words. Why is it not written in this way: ... and those who believed where appointed to eternal life? I am still not sure which version is the correct one.


It is interesting to look how the verse 48 is translated in various Bibles:

in Slovak:
"Keď to počuli pohania, radovali sa a oslavovali Pánovo slovo a uverili všetci, čo boli vopred určení pre večný život."

in Czech:
"Když to pohané uslyšeli, radovali se a velebili slovo Páně; ti pak, kteří byli vyvoleni k věčnému životu, uvěřili. "

In Greek: http://biblos.com/acts/13-48.htm

Here is my translation of the Slovak version back to English: When Gentiles heard it, they rejoiced and celebrated the word of God and believed those who were predetermined (or designated in advance) for eternal life. The Czech version translates to the same. The Greek version can be looked up on the given link. The crucial word is the word 'tetagmenoi (τεταγμένοι)'. But I do not know Greek, so I cannot say anything more. Is someone here with knowledge in Greek? (Maybe the order of words is also important here.)

I am curious how that verse is translated in Croatian Bible, French, German, and other languages.

1over137 wrote:Now I got it. The proper Slovak world for appointed people is 'vymenovani' according to your example. It means for example that if you are qualified for some job you can be appointed for that job (She was appointed professor of chemistry at the university). So, believers must first meet certain criteria and only then they are appointed to eternal life. But why that verse is written in the way it is written ... and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed? Notice the order of words. Why is it not written in this way: ... and those who believed where appointed to eternal life? I am still not sure which version is the correct one.

In French:

Les paiens se réjouissaient en entendant cela, ils glorifiaient la parole du Seigneur, et tous ceux qui étaient destinés à  la vie éternelle crurent.

The French carries this sense: ''The pagans rejoiced at the hearing of this, glorified the word of God, and all those on their way to eternal life believed.''

In Spanish: (my keyboard doesn't have Spanish accents)

Los que no eran judios se alegraron con estas palabras y comenzaron a alabar el mensaje del Senor, y creyeron todos los que estaban dispuestos para la vida eterna

The Spanish carries this sense: ''Those who were non Jews were overjoyed at these words and worshiped the word of God, and those favorably disposed to eternal life believed.''

FL

1over137 wrote:I am curious how that verse is translated in Croatian Bible, French, German, and other languages.

Here it is - Djela apostolska 13:45-49, from "Novi zavjet i psalmi", translated from Greek by Duda, Fućak and Gass, 11th edition, published by Kršćanska sadašnjost, Zagreb, 1990.

45 Kad su Židovi ugledali mnoštvo, puni zavisti psujući suprotstavljali su se onomu što je Pavao govorio.
46 Na to im Pavao i Barnaba smjelo rekoše: "Trebalo je da se najprije vama navijesti riječ Božja. Ali kad je odbacujete i sami sebe ne smatrate dostojnima života vječnoga, obraćamo se evo poganima."
47 Jer ovako nam je zapovijedio Gospodin: Postavih te za svjetlost poganima / da budeš na spasenje do nakraj zemlje.
48 Pogani koji su slušali radovali su se i slavili riječ Gospodnju te povjerovaše oni koji bijahu određeni za život vječni.
49 Riječ se pak Gospodnja pronese po svoj onoj pokrajini.

My (humble) translation would be:

45 When Jews saw the crowd, full of envy, they opposed, swearing, what Paul was saying.
46 As a response, Paul and Barnabas boldly said to them: "You should have been the first to hear the proclaimed Word of God. But since you reject it and you don't consider yourself worthy of eternal life, we therefore address the pagans*."
47 For our Lord commanded us the following: I appointed you to be the light for the pagans* / to be the salvation until the end of the Earth.
48 The pagans* who were listening rejoiced and celebrated the Word of God, and those who were selected for eternal life, believed.
49 The Word of God spread throughout the region.

*Note that the word "pogani" usually means "pagans", but in this context, I think we may translate it as "Gentiles".

Since the confusion was about the second part of Acts 13:48, let's look at it literally:

Pogani--------------koji-----su slušali-----radovali su se-------i slavili-------riječ Gospodnju
Pagans (Gentiles)-who--were listening--were rejoicing---and celebrated-the Word of God

te--povjerovaše-oni---koji--bijahu određeni--za--život-vječni.
and--believed--those--who----were selected--for--life--eternal.

Another notice: The word in Croatian is "određen", which is translated to English as following:
http://www.eudict.com/indexHr.php?lang= ... re%C4%91en

For those interested, here's the translation in English first, then pig Latin:

When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

enWhay ethay entilesGay eardhay isthay, eythay eganbay ejoicingray andway orifyingglay ethay ordway ofway ethay ordLay; andway asway anymay asway adhay eenbay appointedway otay eternalway

Now, the word "appointed", when translated to pig latin, is translated as "appointedway". I think there's some significance in this, being that Jesus is the "way". So, belief in Jesus, is the "way" we are appointed.

Pig latin says it, I believe it, that settles it!

RickD wrote:Pig latin says it, I believe it, that settles it!

Rick, you're making fun of a thread. I'll report you to a mod... Oh wait.

Reactionary wrote:

RickD wrote:Pig latin says it, I believe it, that settles it!

Rick, you're making fun of a thread. I'll report you to a mod... Oh wait.

It's ok, Reactionary. I've reported myself to myself. I'll come up with an appropriate punishment at some point.

Read the entire passage in context without isolating that verse:

Act 13:44-48 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God. But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming. Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

The Greek word in question here is tasso and it's in question as to whether the tense used is passive or middle voice which makes a huge difference as to whether there is intentional will of God being applied here in the sense that it is God determining who is being saved or not. As is typical and often ignored, in this instance when the sense of ordination is appealed to (which is not the same thing as foreordination) the contrast is made between Jews and Gentiles. One of the great barriers to understanding on these sorts of issues is failing to recognize that for the Jews, one of the great barriers to then seeing what God was doing was to recognize that through Christ, Israel was no longer a specifically isolated nation with regard to God's plan of salvation to all nations. When it speaks here of ordination, it's not speaking simply of the individuals but rather demonstrating that Gentiles now are being saved and brought to Christ in direct fulfillment of God's promise to Abraham that all nations would be blessed through him and the Messiah who came.

You have to preassume the sense of individual deteminism and read it into this text to come out with the idea that God is picking and choosing who will be saved and that is contrary to other portions of scripture which indicate that it is God's will that all be saved. God has chosen to give man free will and choice in these matters and to purposely limit His own will so that with salvation comes a relationship between father and children and not simply willless slaves.

Canuckster1127 wrote: The Greek word in question here is tasso and it's in question as to whether the tense used is passive or middle voice which makes a huge difference as to whether there is intentional will of God being applied here in the sense that it is God determining who is being saved or not.

Author of the following study http://www.dtl.org/calvinism/study/acts-13-48/pt-2.htm thinks that in this verse, tasso is a perfect tense, passive voice, participle.

1over137 wrote:

Canuckster1127 wrote: The Greek word in question here is tasso and it's in question as to whether the tense used is passive or middle voice which makes a huge difference as to whether there is intentional will of God being applied here in the sense that it is God determining who is being saved or not.

Author of the following study http://www.dtl.org/calvinism/study/acts-13-48/pt-2.htm thinks that in this verse, tasso is a perfect tense, passive voice, participle.

As I said it's an argument. A Calvinist is going to argue for that tense because it supports their overall theology. I believe that that sense is inconsistent with the overall context of the passage and the contrast within the immediate passage indicates otherwise indicating it's a contrast between Jews and Gentiles with the focus being on God's ordaining that Gentiles come to Him through Christ and not Jews only. That is what is ordained. It's not foreordained (a different word) by God which individuals will come and which will not. Foreknowledge is not foreordination. That's usually where the misunderstanding enters.