Evidence for God from Science

Hello,

Came across this site by google, and just found this forum. I do believe jesus was a historical figure, and I almost believe in a deist god. I have many questions for Christians that can actually think. But first, I'd just like to state my objections to the christian faith.

My largest issue is that of extreme hypocrisy within the church and all of religion for that matter. It seems to me that many Christian do not practice what they preach. I have been attempted to be converted multiple times and that's when I see the issues in Christians. How can one expect me to convert to a religion they themselves do not practice? Why should I be told I'm morally inferior when the morally superior christian drinks, smokes, and party's? I do the same thing, but you believe that you are forgiven and I believe I did nothing morally wrong? I take almost a ghandi like stance of Christianity, I like your christ but I do not like your christians. Some christians do practice, and do some great things, no doubt, the large majority get like a super sparkly feeling inside of them, then go out and disobey everything your new covenant commands you to do? How can I believe something that is supposed to change me when the people trying to convert me are barley changed themselves. The only difference I see is that they are in love with jesus, but yet seek no betterment of self.

I'm open minded, I have no deep scientific disbelief of christianity, but I have strong moral objections to it.

Hi Blood.

When I was an atheist I had the same feelings. I saw many 'Christians' not being honest. Yes, there are many hypocrats. But later I met real Christians. Especially a man who is now my very good friend. He is missionary and a pastor with huge heart and humble mind. He also was once an atheist when he was young and had the same issue with Christians you have now. He once argued with one pastor about the practices in church then got into troubles. He then left. Later in his life he met another pastor at his job. He automatically distrusted him. He thoght he would point at him being hypocrat first time he would see him having sermon. But the pastor was amazing. My friend watched him every day. He never reacted how my friend predicted, even when the pastor went through tough times. Cards were reversed. My friend realized that it is him who is in trouble. He started to see the world from another perspective and started to feel sorry. He then asked the pastor how one gets into heaven. The pastor came to his home and opened the Bible in front of him.

Welcome to the forum.
Hana.

congratulations on topic number 666

Blood wrote:Hello,

Came across this site by google, and just found this forum. I do believe jesus was a historical figure, and I almost believe in a deist god. I have many questions for Christians that can actually think. But first, I'd just like to state my objections to the christian faith.

My largest issue is that of extreme hypocrisy within the church and all of religion for that matter. It seems to me that many Christian do not practice what they preach. I have been attempted to be converted multiple times and that's when I see the issues in Christians. How can one expect me to convert to a religion they themselves do not practice? Why should I be told I'm morally inferior when the morally superior christian drinks, smokes, and party's? I do the same thing, but you believe that you are forgiven and I believe I did nothing morally wrong? I take almost a ghandi like stance of Christianity, I like your christ but I do not like your christians. Some christians do practice, and do some great things, no doubt, the large majority get like a super sparkly feeling inside of them, then go out and disobey everything your new covenant commands you to do? How can I believe something that is supposed to change me when the people trying to convert me are barley changed themselves. The only difference I see is that they are in love with jesus, but yet seek no betterment of self.

I'm open minded, I have no deep scientific disbelief of christianity, but I have strong moral objections to it.

It seems your issues are NOT with religion but with organized religion and how some people "practice" it.
The vast majority of Christians would agree with you !
You are giving the majority of Christians a "bad rep" based don the minority ( and with billions of Christians those you speak off are indeed a minority).
No Christian SHOULD come with a "morally superiour" attitude since one of the primary tenents of Christianity is that we are ALL sinners and NONE are to judge OTHERS ( though we are to judge sinful acts as being wrong).
Realize that Christianity is about helping and saving those who are "sick" and so YES, you will find lots of "sick people" ( this is where we should keepn in mind Augustine's: "Hospital for sinners not a museum of saints" analogy ( or something to that effect).
Self-righteoueness is perhaps THE sign that a Christian is still going through the healing process and one must forgive "zeal" when it is misused and misplaced.
As for this part:

How can I believe something that is supposed to change me when the people trying to convert me are barley changed themselves.

Allow me to say this:
I have NO IDEA what a person has been through and how much they already HAVE changed, truly and neither do YOU.
To make a comment like that is the very thing you are critical about !
You have just judged others by your very own "yard stick" and done that based on nothing but an arbitrary view that takes into account NOTHING about the other person(s) what they have been through and where they are now in RELATION to that.

Christianity is about love, about God loving us so much that He gave EVERYTHING for us so that WE may KNOW that love.
That we as people fail in expressing that, in understanding that and sharing that is OUR failing and the Cure to that failing is Christ.

I couldn't agree more with paul; he hits it in the spot. Just like paul said, people judge on the minority compared the majority. For reference: The news shows more bad than the good. It's human nature. We always look at the "bad Christians" to get a look at the ones who are actually doing something right. Even if you don't see any good Christians, look at Christ before anyone else. He's the one you look at, not us. Even though our actions reflect Christ.

I recall someone asking me "what have churches done" for the community?
When I gave him a run down of what a typical church does do, he reply was: " Yeah but priests molest kids".
Well, there you have it.

Welcome.

My largest issue is that of extreme hypocrisy within the church and all of religion for that matter.

Hypocrisy is a problem. A big problem. And, I am guilty of it. In fact, who isn't. There are doctors who are quacks. Does that mean that medicine should be abandoned? There are crooked judges. Does that mean we should throw out the justice system? There are millions of people (not just religious) who act contrary to what they say they believe. Divorce is about 50% in this country, which means that majority of adult people are hypocrits and are willing to turn their backs on promises made in front of friends, family, and the legal system.

It seems to me that many Christian do not practice what they preach. I have been attempted to be converted multiple times and that's when I see the issues in Christians. How can one expect me to convert to a religion they themselves do not practice?

The failure of people doesn't determine what is true. My grandfather told me to never smoke. Guess what? He smoked. In fact it killed him.
Next, what do you mean by convert? join the right club or group? If so, then I agree. The message of the historical Jesus you mention wasn't to join the high and mighty club. It was John 5:24, John 3:16. It is actually a good thing if you are able to see through the bologna. However, it also creates a bit of a problem. Is it wrong (I mean really wrong) for a 'Christian' to do what you are saying? And if so, on what basis do you make this judgment? Here is the contradiction.

I do the same thing, but you believe that you are forgiven and I believe I did nothing morally wrong?

Well, then so what. If you are saying there is no moral standard, then that is a subjective opinion. If they (hypocrites) are saying there is a moral standard, then that also is subjective. It is one opinion versus another. If that is true, then who are you to judge those who judge you. Why is your judgment right and theirs wrong? Isn't that hypocritical? Or, are you smuggling in an objective standard to judge their hypocrisy? Don't get me wrong. I agree there are hypocrits. I agree there are people who judge the non-Christians and yet commit things equally bad or worse. But I also have an objective standard by which to base such things. Do you? If not, then it is your subjective preference versus theirs. If you do, then please elaborate on it and its source.

Why should I be told I'm morally inferior when the morally superior christian drinks, smokes, and party's?

One of the central messages of Christianity is that all are the same. Romans 3:23 (Even if many forget it) No one is morally superior to anyone else. It isn't about being 'better than' someone, but being 'better off.'

I take almost a ghandi like stance of Christianity, I like your christ but I do not like your christians. Some christians do practice, and do some great things, no doubt, the large majority get like a super sparkly feeling inside of them, then go out and disobey everything your new covenant commands you to do?

Yep, Ghandi made the same fundemental mistake of throwing out the baby (truth) with the bathwater. Who Jesus was, what He said, and what He did has nothing to do with the failures of messed up people like me. But, you are also making some sweeping condemnations. The truth of Jesus' claims do not hinge on my willingness or ability to live a certain way. No more than does the truth of 2+2=4 depend on a class of students getting the answer correct.

How can I believe something that is supposed to change me when the people trying to convert me are barley changed themselves.

Change in the sense you speak is ultimately a volitional issue. Now, if I buy a lottery ticket, have I changed? What if it turns out to be the winning ticket? Have I changed? Positionally I have. I was broke, and now, positionally I am wealthy. Practically, I am still me. The same me.
Does that mean I will or have to live like I am wealthy? I should, but it doesn't mean I will. I am still me, I just now have money. A Christian, simply put, is anyone who has trusted that they are a sinner and Jesus is their savior. They aren't trusting in their behavior, because if their behavior was right to begin with, they wouldn't need saving in the 1st place. They are trusting in Christ. Trusting in Christ changes one positionally. (Eph. 1:13,14; 1 Cor. 12:13, Romans 8:1)
Now, to counter what you say. I have seen lifestyles completely turned around. Drug addicts, drug dealers, and hardened criminals who have testimonies that will rock your world. I've seen people quit wordly pursuits and move to 3rd world countries. I've seen people give of their time, talents and resources for the needy and hurting. I've seen people indifferent to the cause of Christ be moved to change their lives.
And, I also see church going people who are filled with apathy, indifference, and even seem to do more harm than good. As for me, I can say that I've had a little of both.

The only difference I see is that they are in love with jesus, but yet seek no betterment of self

.That is a sweeping generalization, and quite frankly just a bitter and arrogant remark that you think you know everything about every believer in this world. Is it possible that you are wrong? To put it frankly, you don't know me, or anyone here. You certainly don't know all Christians. Not to say, you aren't justified. In fact the biggest selling Christian books right now such as Crazy Love, Not a Fan, and Radical are all about the problem you bring up, that being Christians not making an impact and living like the rest of the world. Who are buying those books? Christians. It is a problem. But it doesn't change the fact that you, just like me, need a savior.

I'm open minded, I have no deep scientific disbelief of christianity, but I have strong moral objections to it.

You shared with us your thoughts, now I'll share mine. I don't believe (on 1st take) ANYONE who says they are open minded. Nothing personal. But, I also won't be a hypocrite and tell you that I am open minded.

I'm not sure I truley understand Jlay. I know a few christians very well, and I've known them through their "transition" to become christians. I see no difference in them, when I ask them about christ I swear they turn into the pope and give me a speech on how great christ is and how loving he is. If christ is so great, and his love so overwhelming, why does this not cause them to depart from their past lives and change them anew. They should at least struggle in my mind with sin, but yet they do not. Maybe I do not know a battle in their head when they do something, but their christianity does not show through their actions.
When I ask them why they believe god is real, they explain a feeling they say they cannot explain, that is not proof to me! They do not react to this feeling!
Some christians say they "are not real christians", and i'm sure if you said that to their face they would turn into the pope again and spew out how much they love jesus.

I even asked them about basic theology and their answer is always basically just jesus!

Q: Why is the bible true in your mind
A: Jesus

Q: Were adam and eve real
A: Jesus is all that matters

Q: What about the exodus, did it really occur, some acheologist believe it was not
A: I don't know I don't care, maybe it was a story to teach us a lesson. Jesus is all that matters.

What they seem to miss is that this does not convicince me, and this seems like blind faith to me. Why not challange their faith? Do research?


And just to add on, Kind of off topic question, but why do you personally believe that your god is real, and that jesus truley existed?

I can honestly tell you that anyone the answers a question about God or Christ in a simple way or one sentance has NOT put much thought into your question.
And as for these:

Q: Why is the bible true in your mind
A: Jesus

Q: Were adam and eve real
A: Jesus is all that matters

Q: What about the exodus, did it really occur, some acheologist believe it was not
A: I don't know I don't care, maybe it was a story to teach us a lesson. Jesus is all that matters.

I gotta ask you, WHO have you been talking to ??

If christ is so great, and his love so overwhelming, why does this not cause them to depart from their past lives and change them anew.

When you say cause, in this sense, it means force. God doesn't force anyone to comply to a lifestyle. Otherwise you wouldn't be you. His offer of salvation is a free gift offered in grace and received in faith. Can it change a person? Yes, as they continue to respond in faith. Can a person grieve the spirit of God and live contrary to it? Yep. You see, if I took a gun, held it to your head and made you perform a 'good' deed, would it actually be your 'good?' No. It would be coerced and manipulated. Or, what if I brainwashed you, or controlled your thoughts with psychic powers. Again, you wouldn't be you. You'd be a robot, or zombie.

They should at least struggle in my mind with sin, but yet they do not. Maybe I do not know a battle in their head when they do something, but their christianity does not show through their actions.

No, you don't know the battle in their head. If a believer is not struggling with sin, then there is a problem. But again, we can't see inside, and since you haven't actually listed sins, then we are left to guess.

I even asked them about basic theology and their answer is always basically just jesus!

Q: Why is the bible true in your mind
A: Jesus

Q: Were adam and eve real
A: Jesus is all that matters

Q: What about the exodus, did it really occur, some acheologist believe it was not
A: I don't know I don't care, maybe it was a story to teach us a lesson. Jesus is all that matters.

Their ignorance does not mean there aren't legit answers. It only means that they are not prepared to give a reason for the hope they have. When I trusted in Christ I did not have all the answers and still don't. It is a faulty premise to say that one must have all the answers to conclude that Christ is savior.
Another consideration is that these people may or may not be believers.

What they seem to miss is that this does not convicince me, and this seems like blind faith to me. Why not challange their faith? Do research?

Depends. In fact I wouldn't put it past God to have placed you in their path for that very reason. To challenge their faith. Sounds like you have made up your mind about them.

And just to add on, Kind of off topic question, but why do you personally believe that your god is real, and that jesus truley existed?

That is without question a longer post than I have time to type up now. But just for a sample.
Bascially, I believe God is real because God has made it evident to me in many ways. As I have matured in my faith God has continued to prove faithful as I have sought to answer more and more questions. Far more than you have proposed to your friends. As I have sincerely sought God I have been filled. As I have resisted, doubted and denied, I was also equally emptied. There have been times in my life where I have sought God and times I ran from Him. And both provided convincing proof.
From the beginning it seemed only obvious that a creation necessitates a creator. Design, function and purpose are written all over the creation from the microscopic level all the way to the expanse of the cosmos. And none of these are even possibiliites in a material universe. NONE! The reality of a moral law giver and judge is written on the human conscience. Even you can see when your friends are WRONG.

It always seemed like much harder effort was required to posit an existance apart from a creator. Further, if creation is the handiwork of God, then a 'religion' ought to line up. That is why we can discount Pantheism, polytheism and atheism. Of course I wasn't reasoning all this out as a young lad. The reality is that the obvious things that were generally revealed began to line up with more specific revelation I received regarding the world, God, and sin. I can assure you that my human nature would be much more content without a moral law giver. And frankly things would be far easier if when we died it just all went black. It certainly seems to be the path of least resistance. But I can't escape what I know, and what God has revealed through evidence, experience and the scriptures. I would have to walk in willful ignorance to live in such a way. Faith does require trust, but I certainly wouldn't call it a blind faith.

So, I think it is actually a great thing that you are dealing with this. Because on one hand, you are (at least from what you've said) learning what Christianity is and isn't. It is obvious that you, like many, have a distorted idea of what Christianity means. In fact, your friends might even have it wrong as well. Saying one is a 'Christian' doesn't mean a whole lot today, unfortunately. The word 'Jesus' doesn't mean a lot unless it is tied correctly to the one it is said to represent.
So regarding your friends, you see that they are not living RIGHT. Which only says that even a non-believer knows right from wrong. The fact that you can spot this is evidence in and of itself. That the image of God is still impressed upon your heart. Otherwise, as I've already said, it's just your preference versus theirs.
I gave you a brief answer, I would expect the same for the question I asked you in the previous post.....

jlay wrote:Well, then so what. If you are saying there is no moral standard, then that is a subjective opinion. If they (hypocrites) are saying there is a moral standard, then that also is subjective. It is one opinion versus another. If that is true, then who are you to judge those who judge you. Why is your judgment right and theirs wrong? Isn't that hypocritical? Or, are you smuggling in an objective standard to judge their hypocrisy? Don't get me wrong. I agree there are hypocrits. I agree there are people who judge the non-Christians and yet commit things equally bad or worse. But I also have an objective standard by which to base such things. Do you? If not, then it is your subjective preference versus theirs. If you do, then please elaborate on it and its source.

That is the major problem with many Christians; From the biblical standpoint we see what happens to those who practice hypocrisy: Matthew 25:31-46, (the sheep and the goats) The point that Christians miss is that its all to easy to judge others, yet we are called to examin ourselves. Matthew 7-1-5 talks about judgement of others. It is also important to study Apologetics, its amazing that many Christians cannot defend what they believe, we are supposed to give a ready defense for what we believe. Maybe its just the Christians that some know that are hypocrites, that surley doe not apply to the many more who are genuine believers and follow what Jesus says. Some of the questions asked, are some of the easy ones that have been answered by loads of those who have the academic backrounds for the answers. "The Bible as History" and "Evidence for Christanity" are really good books with various topics and answers to some of these questions.

I enjoyed reading your response Jlay.

But I have yet another question. What should Christians focus on.

#1- Betterment of self, solid in faith, not perfect, but striving to follow Christ with all their heart mind and soul, THEN try to convert, and spread Christs love around so it can be seen in their lives by those they seek to convert

#2- Love Jesus with a burning passion and put moral betterment in the back seat whilst trying to share this immense love with others.

#3- Seek to know Christ with all their strength,mind and soul, Seek to love him- "", then seek to get to know others closely, love them deeply, then try to share the gospel with them slowly over time

#4 : Seek to know Christ with all their strength,mind and soul, Seek to love him, then show their immense love of Christ through love of others through good works, caring, loving and kindness.

My thing is #2 annoys the living daylights out of me. One word comes to mind when I see these people, annoying. It's annoying to say the least, if you love him so much why do you not care about hurting him with your sin! The #2's seem to be arrogant bible thumping yahoo's who barley know what the bible says and just get a fuzzy feeling when you say the name jesus.

My favorite Christians of all are #4, Christians like these are the reason I'm even looking into Christianity. What these have done for my community, my family, My GAY brother, will never be forgotten. When I see the immense love of others, coming from a source, this seems to be like a lighthouse of love for me, just showing me why they are doing this. They do good works because of their love, not because they are commanded to.

I enjoyed reading your response Jlay.

But I have yet another question. What should Christians focus on.

#1- Betterment of self, solid in faith, not perfect, but striving to follow Christ with all their heart mind and soul, THEN try to convert, and spread Christs love around so it can be seen in their lives by those they seek to convert

#2- Love Jesus with a burning passion and put moral betterment in the back seat whilst trying to share this immense love with others.

#3- Seek to know Christ with all their strength,mind and soul, Seek to love him- "", then seek to get to know others closely, love them deeply, then try to share the gospel with them slowly over time

#4 : Seek to know Christ with all their strength,mind and soul, Seek to love him, then show their immense love of Christ through love of others through good works, caring, loving and kindness.

My thing is #2 annoys the living daylights out of me. One word comes to mind when I see these people, annoying. It's annoying to say the least, if you love him so much why do you not care about hurting him with your sin! The #2's seem to be arrogant bible thumping yahoo's who barley know what the bible says and just get a fuzzy feeling when you say the name jesus.

My favorite Christians of all are #4, Christians like these are the reason I'm even looking into Christianity. What these have done for my community, my family, My GAY brother, will never be forgotten. When I see the immense love of others, coming from a source, this seems to be like a lighthouse of love for me, just showing me why they are doing this. They do good works because of their love, not because they are commanded to.

The most imporant things, in my view are #s 3 and 4. Force feeding religion on someone never works, it has to be their personal choice. Christians do works to show the Love of God to the world, they are the light and salt of the world. The worst thing a Christian can do is try to Convert someone, and not have the answers that are so often asked. 1 Cor. 13-13: "Now these three remaim: faith, hope and love. But the Greatest of these is love"

i also enjoyed reading your responses jlay and i agree with what you said. @ Blood as true believers we need to look beyond just the mind set of #2 there is no spiritual growth in that. we need be loving and show that in our daily lives. we need to be a lampstand to others showing the love of Christ in all His truth. Christ is our cornerstone and we build upon that by be loving of others and by continued study in the scriptures. #2 like you said is not a good mind set to have in fact it is scary imo. we dont convert people that would be cultic like mentality. we instead show the love of God and Christ through our daily lives and be a light to those who need it hoping that they would turn to God themselves. people need to see how the love of Christ has helped us and i think most would agree here that God doesn't want blind followers. He wants us to be ready to give an account as to why we believe. i agree with Jlay that maybe you were put into your friends lives for the very purpose to challenge their faith because the blind faith road leads to unfortunate consequences. i will keep you in prayer and please keep in prayer yourself. ask God to show you the truth of His love and word. it was not by accident you found this site and are talking about this. God is trying to speak to you. God bless