Evidence for God from Science

Hey everyone, I have a quick question about the popular atheistic origin of the universe models, particularly those held by Stephen Hawking, Larence Krauss and others like them.

Specifically the theories where they tell lay audiences that the universe sprang into being out of "nothing" but in reality they claim that the universe and or the first universe of the multiverse came into being via quantum mechanics.

I believe they specifically state the universe came from quantum fluctuations of vacuum energy through natural processes.

As far as I can tell this is what they believe. Now then, do they currently have any solid evidence that demonstrates this?

Also from what I have heard quantum theories abound among scientists and I think there are at least ten popular theories and there may be more. But from what I've heard from Christian apologists like William Lane Craig all but one of those theories fit well with theism and only one greatly supports atheism.

My question is how strong is the one quantum theory in comparison to the all the others? If I'm not mistaken the quantum theory that supports atheism is the "many worlds hypothesis" which I assume is one and the same with the multiverse theory. Am I right or wrong on that?

But lastly have any of you all read Lawrence Krauss"s book on what he knows regarding the origin of the universe and if his objections have been thoroughly responded to by Christian apologists? Thank you all for your time, G-d bless.

Do check out reasonablefaith.org as WLC has several podcasts on Krauss.

DRDS wrote: Specifically the theories where they tell lay audiences that the universe sprang into being out of "nothing" but in reality they claim that the universe and or the first universe of the multiverse came into being via quantum mechanics.

I believe they specifically state the universe came from quantum fluctuations of vacuum energy through natural processes.

Yes, not from nothing but from vacuum.

DRDS wrote: Also from what I have heard quantum theories abound among scientists and I think there are at least ten popular theories and there may be more.

There are also theories of no beginning. (I've just bought the book called 'Endless Universe' by Neil Turok and it's on its way so I cannot say much more at the moment just that Turok has been developing a cyclic model for the universe, in which the big bang is explained as a collision between two "brane-worlds" in M theory.)

DRDS wrote: If I'm not mistaken the quantum theory that supports atheism is the "many worlds hypothesis" which I assume is one and the same with the multiverse theory.

Multiverse theory and many worlds theory are not the same.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiverse
"Hugh Everett's many-worlds interpretation (MWI) is one of several mainstream interpretations of quantum mechanics. In brief, one aspect of quantum mechanics is that certain observations cannot be predicted absolutely. Instead, there is a range of possible observations, each with a different probability. According to the MWI, each of these possible observations corresponds to a different universe. Suppose a die is thrown that contains six sides and that the numeric result of the throw corresponds to a quantum mechanics observable. All six possible ways the die can fall correspond to six different universes. (More correctly, in MWI there is only a single universe but after the "split" into "many worlds" these cannot in general interact.)"

That was what MWI theory is. Concerning multiverses, there can be several kinds. See the above link.

Krauss really made an either dishonest or completely ignorant equivocation, and a lot of people (not just apologists) have been calling him on it. The way he used the word nothing doesn't fit the way its been used in history at all.

There are a lot of different models out there to be sure, I guess the majority accept a beginning these days.

To be honest I've lately been tending toward cosmological arguments that don't rely on specific scientific theories (or even the beginning of the universe) simply because physicists and cosmologists and "science people" know so much more about the different theories here. I still do think it points to the beginning of the universe, and a lot of the things you're talking about (like the world ensemble thing) doesn't seem to me to actually address the question of the universe beginning.

Thanks everyone, I was also wondering in particular I was going to ask you 1over137 up until this point, have you seen anything out of these secular origin of the universe theories that makes you nervous or gives you the fear that maybe the universe came come into being without God or any kind of supernatural intervention?

DRDS wrote: Thanks everyone, I was also wondering in particular I was going to ask you 1over137 up until this point, have you seen anything out of these secular origin of the universe theories that makes you nervous or gives you the fear that maybe the universe came come into being without God or any kind of supernatural intervention?

You mentioned there are at least 10 theories. Maybe you could tell us which ones. I probably do not know about all of them.
You ask whether there is something which gives me the fear. That book by Neil Turok could give me the fear. Whether quantum laws and spring of the universe from the vacuum brings me fear? I do not know how quantum laws work together with law of gravity, so necessary to say us more about the very early times of our universe. May I ask you what gives you the fear?

1over137 wrote:

DRDS wrote: Thanks everyone, I was also wondering in particular I was going to ask you 1over137 up until this point, have you seen anything out of these secular origin of the universe theories that makes you nervous or gives you the fear that maybe the universe came come into being without God or any kind of supernatural intervention?

You mentioned there are at least 10 theories. Maybe you could tell us which ones. I probably do not know about all of them.
You ask whether there is something which gives me the fear. That book by Neil Turok could give me the fear. Whether quantum laws and spring of the universe from the vacuum brings me fear? I do not know how quantum laws work together with law of gravity, so necessary to say us more about the very early times of our universe. May I ask you what gives you the fear?

I believe the thing about the 10 quantum theories was something I heard William Lane Craig speak about. If I can find an article where he talks about it I"ll send it to you. As far as the fear thing is concerned, it's obvious if the likes of Stephen Hawking, Lawrence Krauss and others like them can clearly demonstrate and show expediently though formulas and things like the LHC that our universe can come about through purely natural process without the help of a creator God than, that very well may disprove God's existence.

That's the fear I'm talking about. Now are you anticipating that Neil Turok book to give you that same kind of fear? Do you think he may be the one with groundbreaking information that could destroy all of theism? Please elaborate.

DRDS wrote: As far as the fear thing is concerned, it's obvious if the likes of Stephen Hawking, Lawrence Krauss and others like them can clearly demonstrate and show expediently though formulas and things like the LHC that our universe can come about through purely natural process without the help of a creator God than, that very well may disprove God's existence.

I do not know Lawrence Krauss. About Stephen Hawking I think what I think. I think he is not very careful in being precise in his books. His books in my opinion are more to impress audience than to peacefully describe things as Briane Greene does. But let's not talk generally but concretely. Which formulas and which things from LHC show that universe can come about through purely natural process?

DRDS wrote: That's the fear I'm talking about. Now are you anticipating that Neil Turok book to give you that same kind of fear? Do you think he may be the one with groundbreaking information that could destroy all of theism? Please elaborate.

According to Bible there was a beginning. I do not think that Neil Turok will destroy theism.

By the way, there are some quotes from scientists:
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/quotes.html

Let's see about the LHC I don't know the exact details on whether or not it will have any kind of threat to theism however I've heard many internet atheists bring it up in their rants and arguments but it may just be something they use to make them look smarter than they really are.

But why did you say earlier you were afraid about reading the Neil Turok book? What is it about what he might say that will bother you? I thought you were clearly talking about he was going to talk about some new discoveries or some new theory that could explain the origin of the universe without the need of any supernatural creator. Because after all that's usually a big topic on this board and website, dare I say it's probably the biggest.

DRDS wrote: But why did you say earlier you were afraid about reading the Neil Turok book? What is it about what he might say that will bother you? I thought you were clearly talking about he was going to talk about some new discoveries or some new theory that could explain the origin of the universe without the need of any supernatural creator. Because after all that's usually a big topic on this board and website, dare I say it's probably the biggest.

I said that the Turok's book could give me the fear. It does not have to. I do not know much about string theory. I want to examine it. Turok is going to talk about his new theory, which is supposed to talk about endless universe. So far, I have impression from him, that he is a good scientist. So he can shaken me little. That's why I said he could bring me fear. But at the end, I think, he is not going to destroy Christianity.

Ok, well either way let us know what you find out after you read the book. Thanks!

I'm not Hana (obviously) or an expert in quantum physics or anything, but it wasn't always assumed by Christian philosophers and theologians that the universe began to exist. Some classical arguments (think Aquinas), for example, could be considered cosmological arguments and don't necessarily rely on a beginning.

Hey narnia4. Concerning the infinite universe, I am continuing here: http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... =3&t=37495