Evidence for God from Science

SO, YES OR NO?
i have heard some pretty good arguments from both sides.
In all honesty i have done it before only because i felt like if i didn't i"d break down and explode
i felt relieved of stress when i finished .. but at the same time felt a bad feeling in the pit of my stomach
like i just murdered someone
felt really bad
andi am 14 yrs old in the teenage years
i cant even look at an "attractive" girl witout well.. lets jus tsay ..get blood rushing to my private organs
and i dont even want it .. oH God help me i need some answer

Uh...double post.

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 93#p121193
.
.

tunde1992 wrote:SO, YES OR NO?
i have heard some pretty good arguments from both sides.
In all honesty i have done it before only because i felt like if i didn't i"d break down and explode
i felt relieved of stress when i finished .. but at the same time felt a bad feeling in the pit of my stomach
like i just murdered someone
felt really bad
andi am 14 yrs old in the teenage years
i cant even look at an "attractive" girl witout well.. lets jus tsay ..get blood rushing to my private organs
and i dont even want it .. oH God help me i need some answer

No... Don't do it. It is a sin. Save sex for your future wife.

Why do you come asking this here?

Go talk to a doctor or a psychologist.

Both of such professionals have heard this question over and over again and can offer you an informed answer.

Anyways, since you are only 14 years old, your dilemma is quite normal at your age and you it is going to happen at other times as well. Your body is transiting some hormonal changes you can't stop. Have fun!!

Anyways, the point I am trying to make: don't feel bad. It's normal. You are normal. The fact that you find it embarassing is related to the fact that you just starting to discover some "new" parts of your body. Have fun again!!

No... Don't do it. It is a sin. Save sex for your future wife.

I agree with Bryan, its perfectly normal and no need to be feeling guilty at all.

How exactly is this a sin G?

this is what I posted in an other thread a while back on the topic

*******************
First scenario
I'll put it to you this way, what if you are caught masturbating lets say, by God (weird I know but just for the argument sake)

And he says, "what are you doing?"

and you go, "errrrrr..."


and God goes on, "I see you were thinking about that girl who you love so much in a very private manner."

and you still go like "errrrrr..."

God leaves.

second scenario

same scenario but this time.....

God says, "What are you doing?"

you go like "I was just...errr..."

God says, "I see you were trying to fantasize a rape, and since you thought about it and enjoyed it, you have committed a sin in your heart."

you still are dumbfounded.

God leaves.

This one is sin, ok.
------------

Now a clever guy may say, "oh, but because he was thinking in the first place, naturally it would escalate to rape"...no it won't, there is no such thing as automatic sin. you decide when you wanna switch over from love to lust. There is nothing to automatically push you. restraining yourself when you feel like it will only result in more problems and even mental issues. I am not saying that you should just put your eyes on anything that walks with a skirt, just saying that if you feel connected it should be a genuine feeling, not the "I need to jerk 4 times a day cuz I'm an A-hole, crazy, porn addict" kind of feeling.

sorry for the strong language, hope you get the idea.

So love is what makes it okay, neo? I'm not sure that really works . . . suppose this girl you really love is married? Or what if you are married and the girl you are thinking about isn't your wife (but suppose you really love her!)?

Or, let's be a bit more explicit. You say masturbation is okay so long as you love the person you are thinking about. Okay, well suppose rather than masturbating, the girl that you really love is doing the job for you using her hand. So is it now a sin, just because she is using her hand rather than you using yours? That seems a bit arbitrary. And if that isn't a sin, then what if it isn't her hand? I'll let you imagine other body parts, all the way down to the most intimate.

My point is that if love makes it okay, then it seems that you're going to have a hard time showing why sex outside of marriage is not okay, so long as it is done in love.

I'd just caution against this line of thought. The presence or lack of love doesn't make a sexual act good or bad. What makes it good or bad is the psycho-social context in which it occurs.

Hmm, Jac, I really do not think what I wrote was intended to address your points in particular. My only contention was that masturbating is not always a sin. Of course I'll take exceptions to that. The point about love is something that should not be taken alone but I don't think we can automatically label masturbation as sin too. The context matters greatly in any case. I do wanted to point out the element of love as something that should be factored in when it comes to exploring the issue. It is something that we can not alienate where it might be a genuine cause. Though I would not presume to overrule anything out of love i.e sex outside of marriage, as okay. why? because that would not be consistent with the rest of scriptures but I also find it very hard to assume that Masturbation is a sin if you really love someone, under the right conditions that is. The act of thinking and the act to happen physically, these are two different things. One may lead to the other but one doesn't actually equate the other. Not in all cases, anyway.

suppose this girl you really love is married? Or what if you are married and the girl you are thinking about isn't your wife (but suppose you really love her!)?

Of course that's a sin. But I think you either have gotten the wrong impression or I may have given the wrong impression but regardless of it, if you look at the OP, the boy was having trouble, as its coming to him naturally at an age where it may be more because of his hormones kicking in rather than lust. Not that any of this can be called as an excuse to sin, like pre-marital sex or anything for that matter. But it is vital to approach the issue with gentle open mindedness, so to speak, rather than start labeling him a sinner and making him guilty (which was Gman's post that implied such), where we know that he is most likely to masturbate through that age. The only difference is if we convince him its a sin no exceptions and if he got a heart which is guilt conscious more than necessary; it will be a hard time for him and he will go though mental anguish, fighting and doubting and probably cursing himself for not being able to resist the desire and in his mind sinning and sinning often, labeling himself as a sinner more often and even thinking himself "less holy" than others around him, until he gets married or has sex.

I'd just caution against this line of thought. The presence or lack of love doesn't make a sexual act good or bad. What makes it good or bad is the psycho-social context in which it occurs.

I am aware Jac of what you are trying to caution against and I agree with perhaps an exception. I may not fully agree on the point of love to be totally left out of the equation. It may be left out if we are going to brand the deed of sex outside marriage or pre-marital sex as sin or not - as in that context love would be irrelevant but on a more subtle point, when it comes to masturbation I really do not see the objection in this particular case of love.

To be frank I do not think God is going to be angry because you are thinking intimately about someone you love. Unless you are thinking outside of love,that is rape or forced sex or even paid sex, OR you are thinking in love about someone's wife or someone other than the girl you love - then Yes I would agree with you that it is the kind of thing Jesus warned to not think, as it would be a sin.

I think this leads to one more important thing. I think sex without love is also a sin even if it is in the marriage bed. What if someone is having sex with his wife he doesn't love and the wife doesn't love him (careful, I am not saying he or she love someones else , they just do not love each other, lets suppose they had a arrange marriage), but they seem to cope with with their dislike without showing, and rather than going out and having sex, it is just better to do it with your "lawful wedded husband/wife" with whom you are a complete stranger at heart, but still you are married, so its okay and not worth the risk to cheat, right?
I find it as sinful as premarital sex. Your thoughts would be more than welcome.

neo-x wrote:But it is vital to approach the issue with gentle open mindedness, so to speak, rather than start labeling him a sinner and making him guilty (which was Gman's post that implied such), where we know that he is most likely to masturbate through that age. The only difference is if we convince him its a sin no exceptions and if he got a heart which is guilt conscious more than necessary; it will be a hard time for him and he will go though mental anguish, fighting and doubting and probably cursing himself for not being able to resist the desire and in his mind sinning and sinning often, labeling himself as a sinner more often and even thinking himself "less holy" than others around him, until he gets married or has sex.

Just wanted to say I'm in full agreement with this. As I said in my own post, I don't think masturbation is necessarily a sin. I just think we need to be careful about saying it is a sin because of this or not a sin because of that--that's the case with anything. People have a tendency to take ideas to their logical conclusions. It's the whole law of unintended consequences thing.

I think this leads to one more important thing. I think sex without love is also a sin even if it is in the marriage bed. What if someone is having sex with his wife he doesn't love and the wife doesn't love him (careful, I am not saying he or she love someones else , they just do not love each other, lets suppose they had a arrange marriage), but they seem to cope with with their dislike without showing, and rather than going out and having sex, it is just better to do it with your "lawful wedded husband/wife" with whom you are a complete stranger at heart, but still you are married, so its okay and not worth the risk to cheat, right?
I find it as sinful as premarital sex. Your thoughts would be more than welcome.

This bothers me, though. I don't think it's a sin to have sex with your husband or wife even if you don't love them. Take 1 Cor 7:3-5 (NKJV here):

• Let the husband render to his wife the affection due her, and likewise also the wife to her husband. The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. And likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. Do not deprive one another except with consent for a time, that you may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again so that Satan does not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.

Paul doesn't say anything about loving each other. It speaks, rather, of a marriage debt. Sexual affection is owed your husband or wife. Unless you believe that 'falling out of love' with someone is sufficient grounds for divorce, then the presence or lack of love has no bearing on the sanctity of the marriage, much less of the legality of the marital act.

This is probably one of the hardest things for Americans to hear, given our views of sex, marriage, and love. But we need to remember that the phenomena of "loved based marriage" has been, for the most part, a fairly recent invention in human history. Most people throughout time practiced some sort of arranged marriage. I'm not saying that either is right or wrong necessarily. I'm saying, though, that because we have the freedom and wealth to practice love based marriage, that doesn't justify our changing the laws of marriage as God ordained them. One of those laws is that, in marriage, you obligate yourself sexually to the other person, and all the more so in a Christian context, since Christian marriage is monogamous. To marry someone and then say you aren't going to sleep with them is to deny them any sexual activity. Lot's of problems with that . . .

First of all, "masturbating," means you are taking the "mastering" into your own hands (pardon the pun) when Christ is supposed to be the "Master" of your body. Go look up the word "fornication" in the Bible buddy, and it reads "Porneo," the same word we get "porn" from. What does a man do when he "watches porn?" He "pleases himself," which is a carnal act. A "Sarkikos act," when we are supposed to be "Pneumatikos" people.

Pneumatikos - driven by the Spirit of Hayah.
Sarkikos - one driven by the lusts of his/her flesh.

actsapostolos wrote:First of all, "masturbating," means you are taking the "mastering" into your own hands (pardon the pun) when Christ is supposed to be the "Master" of your body. Go look up the word "fornication" in the Bible buddy, and it reads "Porneo," the same word we get "porn" from. What does a man do when he "watches porn?"

Actsapostolos, "fornication" is a very disputable word. "Disputable" in the sense that it's used for anything an author considers to be sexual sin.
We discussed it on this thread about a month ago:
http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... =9&t=37438

Here is a very thoughtful, in-depth discussion over the appropriateness/sinfulness or non-sinfulness of MB from a wonderful married Christians' forum (TheMarriageBed.com) that's main focus is sexual issues: http://www.boards.themarriagebed.com/vi ... bation+sin

The question of the linked thread is titled, "Masturbation: What do you teach your kids about it?"

Noted conservative Christian psychologist James Dobson has asserted: "Between 95 and 98 percent of all boys masturbate, and the rest have been known to lie."

Excellent resource, Philip. This quote from an article sums up exactly what I've been saying:

On the contrary, those who "deny" themselves masturbation seem to be more prone to sexual sin with a boy or girlfriend. Some who have "tried it both ways" have said that masturbation makes it much easier for them to remain sexually pure on a date.

And the quote: Colossians 2:20,21,22,23

However, they disagree with me on the "fantasy" part. Oh well.

By the way, Philip, I couldn't open the site's forums, says it's an SQL error.

By the way, Philip, I couldn't open the site's forums, says it's an SQL error.

Reactionary, it appears they are having server problems - I couldn't even get into the site this morning (Sunday).

Try it again later - absolutely fantastic site. I'll followup if the link doesn't begin working.

UPDATE (7-1-12): The marriagebed.com forum (at: http://site.themarriagebed.com/front-page) and it's entire site is currently down - should be up at any time. This is a terrific Christian site if you are interested in Christian perspectives on sexuality and advice and exceptionally refreshing, frank discussions over just about every issue and aspect related to living out married sexuality. The site is technically set up just like godandscience.org - so it will be easy to navigate for users familiar with this site (G&S).

If your 14, don't worry about it. It's part of growing up. Now i'm not saying to make your sheet into a rock, I'm just saying the urge is normal at your age and the ways to avoid the urges will come to you naturally.

As you grow this should become a struggle in your life. It is sinful to an extent, and it's a tricky topic to address. Some argue it actually prevents sin, while some argue it's a sin in and of its self. Masturbation is banned in leviticus, but as you know, we do not follow leviticus. However, I do believe masturbation is part of "sexual immorality" established in the new covenant therefore making it a sin to you and me.

As you grow, and get into actual relationships with women the urge will fade, and the "urge" will be replaced with feeling of love instead of lust. Will it completely go away , no, can you learn to deal with it yes. And of course dwell on Phillipians 4:8 .

There's only 1 man who ever lived who didn't do it, think of it that way.

Leviticus 18 mentions all kinds of unlawful sex acts including sex with animals (v. 23). Why would God warn against such extreme sexual acts that very few people would even consider doing in there and yet leave out something (MB) that is so common as to be almost a universal act out IF it were a big deal?

The story of Onan? Someone else said it quite well: Spilling the seed is not the point and is not what he was put to death for. He had a responsibility to raise up children for his brother but didn't want to. He could have done the honorable thing and said no where his sister-in-law would then get to confront him at the gate and remove his sandal as a testimony against him. He would then be forever know by this disgraceful event. He took the cowardly way out by pretending to fulfill his duty and get his sexual jollies as well. It wasn't the spilling of the seed, it was the incredible selfishness and deception that he tried to pull over on the community. God can't be fooled and slew him for it. He wanted to look good and righteous to man's eyes just like Anaias and Saphira in the book of Acts who met the same fate.