Free will

[ultimate777]

IMHO if free will exists and it is what most people here think it is it's a curse, not given by an all-good God.

Also there is plenty of room beween one having total free will and being a mindless robot.

[Ivellious]

I think the Bible says God gave man free will somewhere, but I don't know the verse. Also, even in that case, it is an odd concept. If God created the universe a certain way, and at the same time knew absolutely everything that would happen in that universe when created that certain way....well, can you really have free will if God created the universe so that he already knew exactly what you would do in it? In a way, that sounds like a lack of free will to me.

[Danieltwotwenty]

How does knowledge negate freewill?


Dan

[Ivellious]

The point is, if God created a universe, and also knew how everything would happen, then He had the power to tweak things at the start so that things would be different. Instead, creating a universe and knowing "well, this person will not accept Jesus, etc etc." means that He already knew you were going to Hell. It was foretold, without and other possible course. At the dawn of time, it was essentially "written in stone." To me, that sounds like there is an illusion of free will, but in truth God decided your fate from the start.

[Danieltwotwenty]

The point is, if God created a universe, and also knew how everything would happen, then He had the power to tweak things at the start so that things would be different. Instead, creating a universe and knowing "well, this person will not accept Jesus, etc etc." means that He already knew you were going to Hell. It was foretold, without and other possible course. At the dawn of time, it was essentially "written in stone." To me, that sounds like there is an illusion of free will, but in truth God decided your fate from the start.

I had it explained to me like this, say freewill and predestination are two sides of a coin, they seem so stark and different yet they are still apart of the same coin.
While contradictory they both remain true.

God decided nothing, we made the decision to reject him and just because God knew we would doesn't negate the fact that we choose it.

Dan

[Ivellious]

The problem with that, as I see it, is this. I understand that knowledge is not the problem here. Clearly, if I know that someone is going to make a bad choice halfway around the world and they do it, that's not my problem or my fault. The problem comes in when God is the source of everything. God created the universe for everything to happen as he wanted it to. God was perfectly capable of changing all sorts of aspects of the universe.

The way I see it is like God setting up the most incredibly huge domino set ever, with each piece that falls being a different "event", so to speak (leading to an infinitely huge setup, but you get the point). When God knocked over that first piece and set the universe in motion, he knew that because of how he set it up, that was how it would go down, no exceptions. God could have set it up differently, but did not. Again, it's not the knowledge, it's the act of creating the universe so that it would happen.

This kind of goes back to my Adam and Eve argument. God punishes Adam and Eve for going against his word, but ironically, God created them specifically so that they would break his rule. Did Adam and Eve have free will? How could they, if God created them to break his rule?

[narnia4]

Still planning on making a thread on a related topic in the future (been trying to "take a break" from philosophy and theological discussions but somehow I can't stay away)... but it depends on what you mean by "total free will". I don't believe that we are mindless robots either, I doubt many do.

Should also mention that there is mystery, maybe even things that seem contradictory. But all truth is also God's truth, we can discover things about God and how he interacts with us and its a joy to do so. Making sense of something doesn't necessarily rob it of beauty and mystery, at least it shouldn't.

[RickD]

The problem with that, as I see it, is this. I understand that knowledge is not the problem here. Clearly, if I know that someone is going to make a bad choice halfway around the world and they do it, that's not my problem or my fault. The problem comes in when God is the source of everything. God created the universe for everything to happen as he wanted it to. God was perfectly capable of changing all sorts of aspects of the universe.

The way I see it is like God setting up the most incredibly huge domino set ever, with each piece that falls being a different "event", so to speak (leading to an infinitely huge setup, but you get the point). When God knocked over that first piece and set the universe in motion, he knew that because of how he set it up, that was how it would go down, no exceptions. God could have set it up differently, but did not. Again, it's not the knowledge, it's the act of creating the universe so that it would happen.

This kind of goes back to my Adam and Eve argument. God punishes Adam and Eve for going against his word, but ironically, God created them specifically so that they would break his rule. Did Adam and Eve have free will? How could they, if God created them to break his rule?

Ivellious, are you saying a sovereign God cannot allow man to make choices on his own, inside God's ultimate plan?

[Danieltwotwenty]

God punishes Adam and Eve for going against his word, but ironically, God created them specifically so that they would break his rule.

No he did not create them to do that, yes he knew that they would do that but it is not something he wanted them to do.

If God wanted the creation perfect we would be nothing but animals and we wouldn't really exist, we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

What is the point in that?

Dan

[RickD]

God punishes Adam and Eve for going against his word, but ironically, God created them specifically so that they would break his rule.

No he did not create them to do that, yes he knew that they would do that but it is not something he wanted them to do.

If God wanted the creation perfect we would be nothing but animals and we wouldn't really exist, we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

What is the point in that?

Dan

To add to what Dan said, when my son was a baby, I knew he would get older, and disobey me. Did I have a son, so he would disobey me? Or, did I just know he has the choice do disobey me?

[Ivellious]

Well, if God's plan involves humans, not really. If God already knew they were going to make that choice, it is factored into the grand scheme. It's not like God was or ever will be surprised by anything we do. Therefore, at the dawn of time, God decided that "this is how it will go, no exceptions." Otherwise God isn't omniscient. Even if you think God left some "wiggle room" for how we live, it still has to fit within a certain framework, and God already knows how we are going to do it.

Again, according to what I know, the moment God created the universe the way he did, the gears were set up so that he already knew whether I was going to heaven or hell. No if, ands, or buts.

To add to what Dan said, when my son was a baby, I knew he would get older, and disobey me. Did I have a son, so he would disobey me? Or, did I just know he has the choice do disobey me?

This argument is invalid. You are not God. God created Adam and Eve in such a way that he decided they would disobey them. He absolutely could have given them a better moral compass, or created them to love him more, or trust him more. He did not have to. He chose the path for them. You, on the other hand, had a child, but you didn't get to pick the son you had. God did, and he chose to create a son and daughter that would do a specific act, and he punished them for it.

No he did not create them to do that, yes he knew that they would do that but it is not something he wanted them to do.

This seems contradictory. Yes, God created them and absolutely knew exactly what they would do. It's not just that they were imperfect, they were imperfect in such a way that guaranteed their disobedience. But, if he didn't want them to, why not create them so that they wouldn't? He rigged the system so to speak. I'm not saying it is outside his rights or powers to do so. But you have to admit, there was no way Adam and Eve would have ever stayed in the garden, and it is only because God created them so that they wouldn't.

If God wanted the creation perfect we would be nothing but animals

Not eating from a tree is not at all perfection. Nor would it make them animals.

[Danieltwotwenty]

I'm sorry you feel that way Ivell, I am pretty sure we have been over this before and I doubt we will ever agree.
I guess we just think differently about it, I am focused on God's love for us and that is all that matters.
I have no idea what you are focused on Ivell but maybe it is something that you should have a look into, search deep within yourself and see what answers you come up with.


Dan

[RickD]

Well, if God's plan involves humans, not really. If God already knew they were going to make that choice, it is factored into the grand scheme. It's not like God was or ever will be surprised by anything we do. Therefore, at the dawn of time, God decided that "this is how it will go, no exceptions." Otherwise God isn't omniscient. Even if you think God left some "wiggle room" for how we live, it still has to fit within a certain framework, and God already knows how we are going to do it.

Again, according to what I know, the moment God created the universe the way he did, the gears were set up so that he already knew whether I was going to heaven or hell. No if, ands, or buts.

Ivellious, God's knowing everything that we will choose, doesn't mean we have no ability to choose. Just because God knew ahead of time, that I was going to run a red light at 11:55 AM, on May 27, 2012, doesn't change the fact that at 11:55 AM, on May 27, 2012, I had a choice to stop at the light, or run through it.

This argument is invalid. You are not God. God created Adam and Eve in such a way that he decided they would disobey them. He absolutely could have given them a better moral compass, or created them to love him more, or trust him more. He did not have to. He chose the path for them.

God knew Adam and Eve would disobey Him. God didn't make them disobey Him. God does have an ultimate will that will be done. But, that doesn't change the fact that we all have choices that we are allowed to make, within God's will.

This seems contradictory. Yes, God created them and absolutely knew exactly what they would do. It's not just that they were imperfect, they were imperfect in such a way that guaranteed their disobedience. But, if he didn't want them to, why not create them so that they wouldn't? He rigged the system so to speak. I'm not saying it is outside his rights or powers to do so. But you have to admit, there was no way Adam and Eve would have ever stayed in the garden, and it is only because God created them so that they wouldn't.

Strangely, I almost agree with you here, to a point. God did know Adam and Eve would disobey Him. That is why God knew, before the foundation of the world, that Christ would die.
1 Peter 1:20 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

[ultimate777]

Well, if God's plan involves humans, not really. If God already knew they were going to make that choice, it is factored into the grand scheme. It's not like God was or ever will be surprised by anything we do. Therefore, at the dawn of time, God decided that "this is how it will go, no exceptions." Otherwise God isn't omniscient. Even if you think God left some "wiggle room" for how we live, it still has to fit within a certain framework, and God already knows how we are going to do it.

Again, according to what I know, the moment God created the universe the way he did, the gears were set up so that he already knew whether I was going to heaven or hell. No if, ands, or buts.

Ivellious, God's knowing everything that we will choose, doesn't mean we have no ability to choose. Just because God knew ahead of time, that I was going to run a red light at 11:55 AM, on May 27, 2012, doesn't change the fact that at 11:55 AM, on May 27, 2012, I had a choice to stop at the light, or run through it.

This argument is invalid. You are not God. God created Adam and Eve in such a way that he decided they would disobey them. He absolutely could have given them a better moral compass, or created them to love him more, or trust him more. He did not have to. He chose the path for them.

God knew Adam and Eve would disobey Him. God didn't make them disobey Him. God does have an ultimate will that will be done. But, that doesn't change the fact that we all have choices that we are allowed to make, within God's will.

This seems contradictory. Yes, God created them and absolutely knew exactly what they would do. It's not just that they were imperfect, they were imperfect in such a way that guaranteed their disobedience. But, if he didn't want them to, why not create them so that they wouldn't? He rigged the system so to speak. I'm not saying it is outside his rights or powers to do so. But you have to admit, there was no way Adam and Eve would have ever stayed in the garden, and it is only because God created them so that they wouldn't.

Strangely, I almost agree with you here, to a point. God did know Adam and Eve would disobey Him.
That is why God knew, before the foundation of the world, that Christ would die.
1 Peter 1:20 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

Could God have chosen to change what Adam and Eve would do?

Why is God not responsible for what He could easily change, good or bad?

What about humans, are we responsible for what we could easily change, good or bad?

[RickD]

Could God have chosen to change what Adam and Eve would do?

Do you mean, could God have made Adam and Eve obey Him?

Why is God not responsible for what He could easily change, good or bad?

Not sure what you mean here. Do you have an example?

What about humans, are we responsible for what we could easily change, good or bad?

Probably. What exactly are you getting at?