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God and Jesus
Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 5:03 am
by ultimate777
In Mathew, Mark, and Luke do they say that Jesus ever claims to be the Son of God, if so, where, and if not, why not?
Re: God and Jesus
Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 12:24 pm
by cheezerrox
Yes, they do. Now, most of the times Jesus is called the Son of God, it's from someone else professing it. The fact that He didn't deny the title and continued His ministry presenting Himself as the Messiah and Son of God that people were waiting for show that this wasn't simply something that other people came up with. Here's a short list of where He is called the Son of God, but this is definitely not every occurence.
Matthew 8:29
Matthew 16:15-17
Matthew 27:54
Mark 1:1
Mark 3:11
Mark 5:7
Mark 15:39
Luke 1:35
Luke 4:3-4
Luke 8:28
John 1:34
John 1:49
John 19:7
John 20:31
Here are places where Jesus calls Himself the Son of God as well.
Luke 22:70
John 3:16-18 (spoken by Jesus concerning Himself)
John 5:18-31
John 11:4
Re: God and Jesus
Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 6:36 pm
by ultimate777
cheezerrox wrote:Yes, they do. Now, most of the times Jesus is called the Son of God, it's from someone else professing it. The fact that He didn't deny the title and continued His ministry presenting Himself as the Messiah and Son of God that people were waiting for show that this wasn't simply something that other people came up with. Here's a short list of where He is called the Son of God, but this is definitely not every occurence.
Matthew 8:29
Matthew 16:15-17
Matthew 27:54
Mark 1:1
Mark 3:11
Mark 5:7
Mark 15:39
Luke 1:35
Luke 4:3-4
Luke 8:28
John 1:34
John 1:49
John 19:7
John 20:31
Here are places where Jesus calls Himself the Son of God as well.
Luke 22:70
John 3:16-18 (spoken by Jesus concerning Himself)
John 5:18-31
John 11:4
In a thread on the "Questions for Christians" forum you said,
"You say things like "Give me an answer I disagree with if you must, but give me an answer I consider on point," but you never have pointed out how people miss your points."
It seems you have thrown an 70 mph pitch right down the middle on a 2-1 count to Ted Williams at his best.
Here I asked if Mathew, Mark, and Luke ever said that Jesus ever claimed to be God, if so where and if not why not?
I asked it just that way for a purpose. You in effect "substituted" claim, or have others claim, He was the Son of God, for me asking if He ever claimed He was God. And I don't mean just saying the phrase "I am God." You added the Gospel of John when I purposely left it out.
I will save telling you why I said it like said it till later so as to not let that divert this thread.
I hope this is a good illiustration of what my complaints are about.
Re: God and Jesus
Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 6:54 pm
by Danieltwotwenty
I don't see what you are complaining about, he gave you examples from the books you requested and also provided them from John as extra.
I think the Luke 22:70 says it all anyway.
Also you need to stop being so ambiguous, if you didn't want John listed then say that or else people will just assume. Say what you mean and mean what you say and people will respond accordingly.
Dan
Re: God and Jesus
Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 10:43 pm
by B. W.
Well, Jesus did say these and it does not get any more to the point...
John 10:30, "I and My Father are one." NKJV
John 8:58, "Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM." NKJV
The phrases Son of Man and Son of God used in Mark Matthew and Luke are terms denoting who the Son of Man / God is as He appeared in the OT and people who encountered him worshiped him...who would bring forth salvation, and is the Messaih.
These phrases/terms help reveal many OT scriptures that identify who the Son of Man / God is - such as:
Isaiah 9:6 "For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. " NKJV
Isaiah 44:6, 7, 8, "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God. 7 And who can proclaim as I do? Then let him declare it and set it in order for Me, Since I appointed the ancient people. And the things that are coming and shall come, Let them show these to them. 8 Do not fear, nor be afraid; Have I not told you from that time, and declared it? You are My witnesses. Is there a God besides Me? Indeed there is no other Rock; I know not one.' " NKJV
Isaiah 45:21, 22, "Tell and bring forth your case; Yes, let them take counsel together. Who has declared this from ancient time? Who has told it from that time? Have not I, the LORD? And there is no other God besides Me, A just God and a Savior; There is none besides Me. 22 "Look to Me, and be saved, All you ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other." NKJV
Now look at these verses: Matthew 18:11 and Luke 19:10
There is much more than this...
Isaiah 43:11, "I, even I, am the LORD, And besides Me there is no savior..." NKJV
What did Jesus do upon the Cross?
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Re: God and Jesus
Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 7:27 am
by PaulSacramento
Just remember that Son of God doesn't equal God the Son as was later formulated in the Trinity doctrine.
There were many "sons of God", David in the OT being one of them.
When Jesus was called Son of God and accepted that title, I don't think it is correct for US to think he was being called God ( the son).
Later they came to that realization, but not when he was alive.
Re: God and Jesus
Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 8:02 am
by B. W.
PaulSacramento wrote:Just remember that Son of God doesn't equal God the Son as was later formulated in the Trinity doctrine.
There were many "sons of God", David in the OT being one of them.
When Jesus was called Son of God and accepted that title, I don't think it is correct for US to think he was being called God ( the son).
Later they came to that realization, but not when he was alive.
Yes that is correct, Paul. However, the terms meanings are also derived by the context of the one speaking and the context within the bible they are used. When used of Jesus, it refers who the Messiah is and who the Messiah really is, as well as what He will do – Reconcile God and man and man and God back together.
Also, Manaoh’s wife and Manoah encounter one who was identified as A Man of God in Judges 13:6. This being is was also called the Malek YHWH in Judges 13:3. This was no angelic being because later in Judges 13 these things happened: Judges 13:13, 16, 17, 18 (Isaiah 9:6c) Judges 13:19, 20, 22, 23 identifies as YHWH not an angelic being.
These experiences and types of encounters connect to John 1:1, 2, 3, 4, 14. Note the Hebrew Word translated angel is the word Malek which simply means messenger, word bearer, task doer… and is not limited to only refer to angels. It can also refer to God himself, the preincarnate Christ, Jesus Christ of the Divine Trinity of the Godhead, known as the Word who delighted in the life of humanity.
This delight was recorded in the OT in encounters with people such as Manoah, Abraham, Moses, to name a few. This person would come as a man, uniting people back to himself and thus became a Son to Man to reconcile us who believe and sealed by the Holy Spirit to become adopted son’s to God…
Those phrases under discussion here refer to the work of Christ and serves to identify him thru use of normal reasoning processes (Isaiah 1:18c)…
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Re: God and Jesus
Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 8:05 am
by PaulSacramento
B. W. wrote:PaulSacramento wrote:Just remember that Son of God doesn't equal God the Son as was later formulated in the Trinity doctrine.
There were many "sons of God", David in the OT being one of them.
When Jesus was called Son of God and accepted that title, I don't think it is correct for US to think he was being called God ( the son).
Later they came to that realization, but not when he was alive.
Yes that is correct, Paul. However, the terms meanings are also derived by the context of the one speaking and the context within the bible they are used. When used of Jesus, it refers who the Messiah is and who the Messiah really is, as well as what He will do – Reconcile God and man and man and God back together.
Also, Manaoh’s wife and Manoah encounter one who was identified as A Man of God in Judges 13:6. This being is was also called the Malek YHWH in Judges 13:3. This was no angelic being because later in Judges 13 these things happened: Judges 13:13, 16, 17, 18 (Isaiah 9:6c) Judges 13:19, 20, 22, 23 identifies as YHWH not an angelic being.
These experiences and types of encounters connect to John 1:1, 2, 3, 4, 14. Note the Hebrew Word translated angel is the word Malek which simply means messenger, word bearer, task doer… and is not limited to only refer to angels. It can also refer to God himself, the preincarnate Christ, Jesus Christ of the Divine Trinity of the Godhead, known as the Word who delighted in the life of humanity.
This delight was recorded in the OT in encounters with people such as Manoah, Abraham, Moses, to name a few. This person would come as a man, uniting people back to himself and thus became a Son to Man to reconcile us who believe and sealed by the Holy Spirit to become adopted son’s to God…
Those phrases under discussion here refer to the work of Christ and serves to identify him thru use of normal reasoning processes (Isaiah 1:18c)…
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To a first century Jew, Son of God or Messiah did NOT mean "God incarnate", no expected that of the messiah.
Re: God and Jesus
Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 1:27 pm
by cheezerrox
ultimate777 wrote:cheezerrox wrote:Yes, they do. Now, most of the times Jesus is called the Son of God, it's from someone else professing it. The fact that He didn't deny the title and continued His ministry presenting Himself as the Messiah and Son of God that people were waiting for show that this wasn't simply something that other people came up with. Here's a short list of where He is called the Son of God, but this is definitely not every occurence.
Matthew 8:29
Matthew 16:15-17
Matthew 27:54
Mark 1:1
Mark 3:11
Mark 5:7
Mark 15:39
Luke 1:35
Luke 4:3-4
Luke 8:28
John 1:34
John 1:49
John 19:7
John 20:31
Here are places where Jesus calls Himself the Son of God as well.
Luke 22:70
John 3:16-18 (spoken by Jesus concerning Himself)
John 5:18-31
John 11:4
In a thread on the "Questions for Christians" forum you said,
"You say things like "Give me an answer I disagree with if you must, but give me an answer I consider on point," but you never have pointed out how people miss your points."
It seems you have thrown an 70 mph pitch right down the middle on a 2-1 count to Ted Williams at his best.
Here I asked if Mathew, Mark, and Luke ever said that Jesus ever claimed to be God, if so where and if not why not?
I asked it just that way for a purpose. You in effect "substituted" claim, or have others claim, He was the Son of God, for me asking if He ever claimed He was God. And I don't mean just saying the phrase "I am God." You added the Gospel of John when I purposely left it out.
I will save telling you why I said it like said it till later so as to not let that divert this thread.
I hope this is a good illiustration of what my complaints are about.
I think you just don't want to be happy with the answer you were given. Now, you did leave out John, and I simply didn't notice that in your orignal post, so I added that in as my error, and so for that I apologize. But, I stated in the beginning that most of the times He was called the Son of G-d, it was by other people, but not as an answer to your specific question. I simply wanted you to consider the importance of the fact that this Man who claimed such devotion and closeness to G-d was called the Son of G-d and G-d Himself many times, and never once denied it, and even agreed to the title. That's all.
On top of that, I did give you specific references where He called Himself the title. So, again, I think you're just refusing to be happy with any answer you're given. I gave you extra information, but I did answer your question. I apologize, honestly, if I made you feel as if you weren't being listened to, it wasn't my intention, I just wanted to give you a good, full answer.
Now, let's continue with this and reason together, and I assure you you'll have all your questions answered.
Re: God and Jesus
Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 6:36 pm
by B. W.
PaulSacramento wrote:...To a first century Jew, Son of God or Messiah did NOT mean "God incarnate", no expected that of the messiah.
A consensus amongst First Century Jews?
I think not due to the sects of the Sanhedrin, Pharisees, Scribes, Essences’, Followers of John the Baptist, and who all knows what other sects there were outside recorded history there really were back then. However, what is clear amongst them was exploring who the Son of God /Son of Man really be. They did not all agree. For example, some thought it referred to a series of special anointed Leaders who arise in history and re-establish the Jewish Nation again by overthrowing an oppressing nation. Others thought, only one such Leader, and not many. Some thought he would be a man while others argued from the bible that he would be of divine origin. Some debated that anyone could bear this title.
Interesting to note, they all derived their ideas from the OT writings.
The role agreed on was that he would be a liberator, like King David, or a special one on the lines of what the Lord spoke to Moses regarding another prophet arising. Knowing human nature, I am sure they spent hours debating if the Torah referred to only one Prophet or many. So which group was closest to being right?
I’d say the John the Baptist group would be. This sect could, from the OT writing they had, deuced that this Messiah would be the special one mentioned in Isaiah writings. He would be God come in Human Flesh to set free from the stronghold of sin. It is a safe bet to also assume, due to human nature, even fellow members of John’s group did not all agree.
Even on this Forum, mention topics like Predestination, Election, Repentance, etc… and you’ll see what I mean. The bible mentions that the Holy Spirit will teach us and help us sort thru all of this, together. There is a reason for it and maybe that reason is to help shape and define God’s Love within ourselves per individual by testing and refining us by
the get rid of thy meanness method
We have the advantage of the fulfilled promises of Christ and the coming of the Holy Spirit into our very lives and hindsight that they of the First Century did not have. The oldest text of Isaiah found predates the First Century and contains the same data we have in our modern translations. In fact, the entire canonized text of both the Jewish scriptures (bible) and ours is extraordinarily Trinitarian in its revelation of the Godhead: One God in three persons all of one divine essence. In fact, looking at the ancient Hebrew use of the words El, Elohim, YHWH, Ruach and the pronouns used such as us, I we, etc… and tenses prove this and you can actually help begin to identify who is speaking in the OT.
But that is another entire subject…
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PS -- we need a smiley tossing in two cents - to bad we do not or I would have used it!
Re: God and Jesus
Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 8:19 pm
by ultimate777
Danieltwotwenty wrote:I don't see what you are complaining about, he gave you examples from the books you requested and also provided them from John as extra.
I hope you understood by omitting John I did not want it included
I think the Luke 22:70 says it all anyway.
Also you need to stop being so ambiguous, if you didn't want John listed then say
So I should have said, "but not John?" Think.
that or else people will just assume. Say what you mean and mean what you say and people will respond accordingly.
Please.
Dan
In 1 Chronicles 28:6-7 God says that He has chosen Solomon to be his son, which would make him the son of God, but not God:
6 He said to me: 'Solomon your son is the one who will build my house and my courts, for I have chosen him to be my son, and I will be his father. 7 I will establish his kingdom forever if he is unswerving in carrying out my commands and laws, as is being done at this time.
It's likely that at least up to the time of the Gospel of John people didn't think someone calling himself or being called the son of God was was the same as someone calling himself or being called God. Do you maintain that God does not mean Solomon is His son in verse 6 just because the exact phrase Son of God is not said?
Re: God and Jesus
Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 8:42 pm
by B. W.
ultimate777 wrote:Danieltwotwenty wrote:I don't see what you are complaining about, he gave you examples from the books you requested and also provided them from John as extra.
I hope you understood by omitting John I did not want it included
I think the Luke 22:70 says it all anyway.
Also you need to stop being so ambiguous, if you didn't want John listed then say
So I should have said, "but not John?" Think.
that or else people will just assume. Say what you mean and mean what you say and people will respond accordingly.
Please.
Dan
In 1 Chronicles 28:6-7 God says that He has chosen Solomon to be his son, which would make him the son of God, but not God:
6 He said to me: 'Solomon your son is the one who will build my house and my courts, for I have chosen him to be my son, and I will be his father. 7 I will establish his kingdom forever if he is unswerving in carrying out my commands and laws, as is being done at this time.
It's likely that at least up to the time of the Gospel of John people didn't think someone calling himself or being called the son of God was was the same as someone calling himself or being called God. Do you maintain that God does not mean Solomon is His son in verse 6 just because the exact phrase Son of God is not said?
You enter the realm which perplexed the First Century Jews – it is the context in which the phrase is used and to whom it refers. These phrases are not linear but rather contextual.
For example: What does the word –
might – mean?
Some words have several totally different meanings but the context which they are used defines and brings clarity.
Several people responded to you based on contextual meaning to specific verses referring to Jesus Christ.
If you would like to look at the context as pertianing to mere faliblle mortals, then please note context and also how the Lord himself said there will never be any gods besides Him.
The term, son of God, as applied to us or other persons mentioned in the bible refers to a title by adoption. It is a title sort of Like –
John Doe – (now) Son of Henry Lee of the family of Lee household.
Another example would be: As a Christian,
Dr Norman Geisler is (now) Giesler - Son of God of the household of Christ Jesus.
That is how it applies to people. The bible makes it clear, Jesus was both God and Man just as the OT describes – coming to adopt believers into his Kingdom…
You cannot just apply the phrases how it pertains to us, or Solomon, as the same when applied to Christ. The First Century Jewish leaders and their respective followers did so with trying to define the Messiah and made the same error: avoiding the context and by not letting scripture interpret scripture.
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Re: God and Jesus
Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 8:58 pm
by ultimate777
cheezerrox wrote:ultimate777 wrote:cheezerrox wrote:Yes, they do. Now, most of the times Jesus is called the Son of God, it's from someone else professing it. The fact that He didn't deny the title and continued His ministry presenting Himself as the Messiah and Son of God that people were waiting for show that this wasn't simply something that other people came up with. Here's a short list of where He is called the Son of God, but this is definitely not every occurence.
Matthew 8:29
Matthew 16:15-17
Matthew 27:54
Mark 1:1
Mark 3:11
Mark 5:7
Mark 15:39
Luke 1:35
Luke 4:3-4
Luke 8:28
John 1:34
John 1:49
John 19:7
John 20:31
Here are places where Jesus calls Himself the Son of God as well.
Luke 22:70
John 3:16-18 (spoken by Jesus concerning Himself)
John 5:18-31
John 11:4
In a thread on the "Questions for Christians" forum you said,
"You say things like "Give me an answer I disagree with if you must, but give me an answer I consider on point," but you never have pointed out how people miss your points."
It seems you have thrown an 70 mph pitch right down the middle on a 2-1 count to Ted Williams at his best.
Here I asked if Mathew, Mark, and Luke ever said that Jesus ever claimed to be God, if so where and if not why not?
I asked it just that way for a purpose. You in effect "substituted" claim, or have others claim, He was the Son of God, for me asking if He ever claimed He was God. And I don't mean just saying the phrase "I am God." You added the Gospel of John when I purposely left it out.
I will save telling you why I said it like said it till later so as to not let that divert this thread.
I hope this is a good illiustration of what my complaints are about.
I think you just don't want to be happy with the answer you were given. Now, you did leave out John, and I simply didn't notice that in your orignal post, so I added that in as my error, and so for that I apologize. But, I stated in the beginning that most of the times He was called the Son of G-d, it was by other people, but not as an answer to your specific question. I simply wanted you to consider the importance of the fact that this Man who claimed such devotion and closeness to G-d was called the Son of G-d and G-d Himself many times, and never once denied it, and even agreed to the title. That's all.
On top of that, I did give you specific references where He called Himself the title.
Where in Mathew, Mark, and Luke does He say He is God?
John was written later and a different take on things had happened by then. I may nor may not say something about that in a few minutes. Depends what I can find on the Internet.
If you look in this thread to just before this post you will see that God calls Solomon His son.
And you will see that Son of God just might not mean God Incarnate, at least before the Gospel of John.
Please tell me what you think I am saying so I will know if you understand
So, again, I think you're just refusing to be happy with any answer you're given. I gave you extra information, but I did answer your question. I apologize, honestly, if I made you feel as if you weren't being listened to, it wasn't my intention, I just wanted to give you a good, full answer.
Now, let's continue with this and reason together, and I assure you you'll have all your questions answered.
Re: God and Jesus
Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 9:26 pm
by ultimate777
Cheez, see this:
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_d ... n's_Gospel
If this link does not work please tell me. Or if you cannot get from it what I am talking about.
Re: God and Jesus
Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 11:34 pm
by B. W.
Yes, we get the drift but the premise of the article is wrong. How? First, like I stated earlier, the OT explains who and what the Messiah will be...
Next Did Jesus in Mark, Luke, Matthew ever stated He forgave sins? Saved? Shared power/glory with God the Father?
What does the bible say?
Isaiah 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD, And besides Me there is no savior.
Mat 18:11 For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost.
Luke 9:56 For the Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives but to save them." And they went to another village.
Isa 45:21, 22 Tell and bring forth your case; Yes, let them take counsel together. Who has declared this from ancient time? Who has told it from that time? Have not I, the LORD? And there is no other God besides Me, A just God and a Savior; There is none besides Me. 22 "Look to Me, and be saved, All you ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other.
Who only can Forgive/blot out the root issue of indwelling sin?
Mark 2:6, 7 And some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts, 7 "Why does this Man speak blasphemies like this? Who can forgive sins but God alone?"
Luke 5:24 But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins"—He said to the man who was paralyzed, "I say to you, arise, take up your bed, and go to your house."
Isaiah 43:25 "I, even I, am He who blots out your transgressions for My own sake; And I will not remember your sins.
Isaiah 1:18 "Come now, and let us reason together," Says the LORD, "Though your sins are like scarlet, They shall be as white as snow; Though they are red like crimson, They shall be as wool.
Share God's Glory with another - what does God say about this? and then what did Jesus say?
Luke 22:69, 70 Hereafter the Son of Man will sit on the right hand of the power of God." 70 Then they all said, "Are You then the Son of God?" So He said to them, "You rightly say that I am."
Isaiah 48:11 For My own sake, for My own sake, I will do it; For how should My name be profaned? And I will not give My glory to another.
Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
Isaiah 42:8 I am the LORD, that is My name; And My glory I will not give to another, Nor My praise to carved images.
Mat 16:27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.
There is enough in the gospels to convict Jesus as being God manifest in human flesh from his own recorded words without using John’s Gospel. Therefore, the ‘Son of’ terms identify Jesus as the servant mentioned in Isaiah and not the average Joe. This is God doing this: become a man so as to join you (who believe) to Himself as adopted sons into His household. Son of Man – Son of God - The term in the context Jesus used referred to this: God and man reconciled…
Isa 9:6 For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Isa 49:1 "Listen, O coastlands, to Me, And take heed, you peoples from afar! The LORD has called Me from the womb; From the matrix of My mother He has made mention of My name.
Isa 49:2 And He has made My mouth like a sharp sword; In the shadow of His hand He has hidden Me, And made Me a polished shaft; In His quiver He has hidden Me."
Isa 49:3 "And He said to me, 'You are My servant, O Israel, In whom I will be glorified.'
Isa 49:4 Then I said, 'I have labored in vain, I have spent my strength for nothing and in vain; Yet surely my just reward is with the LORD, And my work with my God.' "
Isa 49:5 "And now the LORD says, Who formed Me from the womb to be His Servant, To bring Jacob back to Him, So that Israel is gathered to Him (For I shall be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, And My God shall be My strength),
Isa 49:6 Indeed He says, 'It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant To raise up the tribes of Jacob, And to restore the preserved ones of Israel; I will also give You as a light to the Gentiles, That You should be My salvation to the ends of the earth.' "
Isa 49:7 Thus says the LORD, The Redeemer of Israel, their Holy One, To Him whom man despises, To Him whom the nation abhors, To the Servant of rulers: "Kings shall see and arise, Princes also shall worship, Because of the LORD who is faithful, The Holy One of Israel; And He has chosen You."
Isa 42:1 "Behold! My Servant whom I uphold, My Elect One in whom My soul delights! I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.
Isa 43:10 "You are My witnesses," says the LORD, "And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me.
Isa 50:10 "Who among you fears the LORD? Who obeys the voice of His Servant? Who walks in darkness And has no light? Let him trust in the name of the LORD And rely upon his God.
Isa 52:13 Behold, My Servant shall deal prudently; He shall be exalted and extolled and be very high
Isa 53:11 He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied. By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many, For He shall bear their iniquities.