Evidence for God from Science

I have some questions regarding Revelation:

Rev 4:8; Rev 4:9-11; Rev 5:8; Rev 5:14; Rev 7:10-12; Rev 7:15; Rev 11:16; Rev 19:4-5; Rev 19:10.
Do people do also something else in heaven than bowing, singing, glorifing and serving?

Rev 13:7-8.
So, before the foundation of the world the names of those who will go to heaven were written in the book of life, right? Isn't this election?

Rev 15:1; Rev 16:1.
Why is God wrathful when it was He who gave us free will and with that the possibility to oppose Him?

1over137 wrote:Do people do also something else in heaven than bowing, singing, glorifing and serving?

It does sound monotonous when you put it that way! However, you are a sinful fat woman and - even though you are Christian - you are still egotistical and proud; so, your question was asked by your fleshly self, not your born again self.

Also, http://www.backtothebible.com recently did a study on Revelation where your question was asked and they concluded that we would be doing stuff which we enjoyed in service to God, like playing golf or travelling or fixing coffee machines and so on.

1over137 wrote:So, before the foundation of the world the names of those who will go to heaven were written in the book of life, right? Isn't this election?

Election, yes; fate, no. God knows the end from the beginning. By way of analogy: God doesn't have to read a novel because he already knows the ending but you have to go through the process in order to understand how the ending came about.

1over137 wrote:Why is God wrathful when it was He who gave us free will and with that the possibility to oppose Him?

My dog has a certain amount of free will but when she does something I don't like, she gets punished. My dog knows there are consequences to certain behaviours but she (sometimes) does them anyway. If a dog can know this, so can your unsaved friends.

FL

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote: It does sound monotonous when you put it that way! However, you are a sinful fat woman and - even though you are Christian - you are still egotistical and proud; so, your question was asked by your fleshly self, not your born again self.

Actually, that question I was asked by one theist who is not Christian. I was curious about the answer, so thanks for the answer below. (And yes, I am not saint)

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote: Also, http://www.backtothebible.com recently did a study on Revelation where your question was asked and they concluded that we would be doing stuff which we enjoyed in service to God, like playing golf or travelling or fixing coffee machines and so on.

Do you happen to know the precise link on that study?

I'll let others answer the bulk of your questions here, but it occurred to me that "glorifying God" really can cover a lot of things. Hopefully when we play an instrument, play a sport, write a book, all those things. I see FL made the same point. I don't know much about what heaven will be like, but I'd imagine that it won't be like little kids being dragged to a church service or being forced to memorize Scripture or something.

Don't think I put a lot of stock in the view, but I know someone who believes that we'll minister to aliens. One thing it does make me think, however, is that there will be a lot of things that we've probably never even dreamed of.

1over137 wrote:Do you happen to know the precise link on that study?

I'm not really computer savvy so I can't give you a precise link but I can tell you how to find what you are looking for:

1. go to www.backtothebible.org

2.click Broadcasts (in the headline, next to Home)

3. click Back to the Bible Radio

4. click Program Archives

5. in the search by date box, select Mar, 2012

The programs you are looking for are on March 21/2012 and March 28-29-30/2012

FL

FL: So, my question did not offend you? Good to know.

Hi Hana,

Do people do also something else in heaven than bowing, singing, glorifing and serving?

May be, may be not...the terms used in Revealing might very well be a metaphors to impart the meaning of pure divine worship, it may not be the whole thing, only what seems like the highest obligation (out of love) from us to God. Fingers crossed on this one.

Rev 13:7-8.
So, before the foundation of the world the names of those who will go to heaven were written in the book of life, right? Isn't this election?

All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast--all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.

Yup seems like it, though if we go with this we get into a problem. The verse actually goes on to say that the lamb of God was also slain before the foundations of the earth. So the question arises, if Jesus had already been crucified or sacrificed before the foundations of the world, then why would he come again and do the whole thing a second time? Not only is this unnecessary but quite absurd. And it doesn't make sense not to mention that the scripture actually is quite consistent on the fact that Christ only died once.

So we have two options
1. Christ died before the foundations of the world and therefore came again to die a second time. (which I really do not believe the case to be)
2. The words are nothing but an indication of foreknowledge on God's part and not of the actuality of the event itself. (This I do believe)

I would treat the book of life reference in the immediate context too because to me, the book of life is merely a metaphor again as I really do not think God forgets things so he needs to sit down and jot them on a piece of paper. I think this only entails that God knows who is going to come to him but the election in the same sense as "Unconditional election" is hard to extract from this. God elects us in Christ. if someone is elected before he is in Christ then that is simply unscriptural.

Why is God wrathful when it was He who gave us free will and with that the possibility to oppose Him?

Simply because we can do anything does not mean we should do everything. If I can kill for my pleasure why does the state or police care about it? After all, I am free to exercise my will, right? You can see the problems this kind of reasoning will lead to. My will is my will but my will does not exclude me from the sovereignty of God to which I am still bound in the larger scenario.

Neo, thank you for the answers. I'd like to ask you this: is God also wrathfull on people who try to leads moral life but do not believe in Him? By moral I mean, they do not kill, try not to lie, do not steal, try to be honest, etc.

God's wraith is a JUST wraith.
God knows how does and does not beleive in him and more importantly WHY they do or do not.
We must trust that God is Just.

Neo, thank you for the answers. I'd like to ask you this: is God also wrathfull on people who try to leads moral life but do not believe in Him? By moral I mean, they do not kill, try not to lie, do not steal, try to be honest, etc.

Hana, I think that my example of "killing" actually created only half the picture, let me clarify. The reason I used the killing example is that because it is a sin. I am sure you have gone through scriptures regarding this: God isn't wrathful on people who are doing good or bad. There is no good without God. A person no matter how moral he is, is still lacking the atonement of Christ and therefore is a sinner and he falls short of the glory of God.

Consider Mark 10:18
"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone.
This verse itself can be explored in details but that is not required right here. I'm only saying that besides God, no one is truly good, in the perfect sense of the word.

Like us, every person needs Christ's redemptive work to be saved. Good or bad is simply irrelevant here. God is not weighing anyone's works. Because if he starts judging us on our works, we will all fall short of the mark and we will all be condemned (you and me included). So it is only through Christ that one can be saved and therefore those who are not in Christ, no matter if they are good, honest people or bad killers, rapists and etc, are all automatically in need of grace and grace alone without which they can not be saved on their own works.

Also I would be careful to not pronounce the word wrathful in the most literal sense, because I think this term is more often used emotionally and is construed in the wrong way. Since God loves the sinner and wants him to repent. God's wrath is simply a literal figure of speech here which if used correctly, is the penalty of death which the law implies on the sinner.

So, I say it this way: God gave us free will and with that the possibility to oppose Him. Yet, when one does not accept Christ as his Saviour he is penalized forever.

1over137 » Fri Jun 15, 2012 1:04 am

So, I say it this way: God gave us free will and with that the possibility to oppose Him. Yet, when one does not accept Christ as his Saviour he is penalized forever.

I don't know Hana, this sounds half of the picture..the truth is everyone is penalized before they even come to Christ. Christ is the only hope there is. Without him the one chance of redemption flies away as well. Hope you get the point. Not believing in Christ is a sin, but then all humans are sinners to begin with. Not believing in Christ just adds the cherry on the top. Everyone is a sinner, they need to be saved, so when they do not believe in Christ they kick away the hope God has given them (and perform the ultimate sin which is to reject Christ) and thus they can not be saved therefore and they are left with no excuse by their own choices.

1over137 wrote:So, I say it this way: God gave us free will and with that the possibility to oppose Him. Yet, when one does not accept Christ as his Saviour he is penalized forever.

Penalized? Is not death a fact on both sides? Does not the most hardened atheist understand his/her own mortality? What difference does it make what it is called? Dying for your sins or simply just dying. Whatever the name or reason, the result is the same.
.
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1over137 wrote

So, you say that everyone is penalized. I therefore transform my question to: God gave us free will and with that the possibility to oppose Him. Yet, everybody is penalized, since everybody is a sinner to begin with.

Ok, perhaps the bold part in my statement above needs clarification.

God gave us free will, but God did not give us the inclination to oppose him, that however can occur as a possibility of events (and it did) but I think there is a difference. Everybody is not penalized because of no reason at all. Everyone is penalized because of the sinful nature and the corrupted self we have, because of the fall of man, the sin of Adam and Eve that we have inherited. I do not think sin is in our DNA or it is a physical entity that everyone is born with. But I think it a spiritual lack of being virtuous by creation that is indeed now missing in every human being, something which Adam and Eve originally had (as they were without sin they were made in the likeness of God) when God made them, but that likeness was lost when they sinned.

I think that the lack of God's nature, of being pure (the thing that Adam and Eve had), which everyone is born without today is what causes us to sin and therefore penalized. I do not mean by "lack of God's nature", that we have no imprint of God, indeed we do have it and it manifests itself abundantly but that is not perfect as it has been corrupted by the fall. We are fallen and so we need redemption, we are fallen and because of the it we sin and get penalized. But it is worth noting that when God made man, he did not made us with sin so mankind was not penalized at creation, only after the fall.

Its a chain event

1. God makes mankind perfect.
2. Mankind sins and loses the perfection.
3. Now every individual comes to this world as spiritually "imperfect".
4. Because of this imperfection, sin is inevitable to all human beings and therefore the penalty of sin is impossible to avoid.
5. All sin and therefore fall short of the glory of God and gets penalized.
6. Now everyone needs Christ's atonement to be saved.

So in this perspective I think free will here is not free will that can be Godly virtuous on its own merit but free enough to accept Christ and therefore receive the gift of salvation which has nothing to do with man's own will but only the atonement of Christ.

Now lets come to this part of your statement "God gave us free will and with that the possibility to oppose Him."
I think there is no denying this, even Lucifer rebelled, why? because he was at least free enough to do so. So there is no denying that there is indeed a free will of some sort which can make us go against God and rebel but this will is not strong enough to make us perfect as God. Hence Lucifer failed to sit on the highest f the high places because his will is not enough; without God's authority it is impossible, same as, without God's work we can not be saved. I think this highlights God being just, wise and merciful. Because he already knew and had a plan if or when mankind would fall. Therefore we have "the lamb that was slain before the foundations of the Earth" it was always in God's knowledge.

Did God always knew that man would sin or it was just a possibility to God? is an entire different debate with a lot of theological and philosophical implications but that is not our topic here and so we need not go there.

Neo, you say that we were not given the inclination to oppose Him. From what you said also follows that the first sin happened as a possibility of events. Well, in those events the Satan was involved. I'd like to ask you whether Satan was given the inclination to oppose Him. When you answer me, I will then continue in "once we sinned we lost perfection"

I always enjoy speaking with you .