Evidence for God from Science

I have an important question im trying to get my head around. While i know (and so do most others here) that salvation is by grace through faith, i am confused as to where this works out for the mark of the beast period.
For example it says that whoever takes the mark will goto hell. But what if a christian did not know about the mark of the beast and took it not knowing it had anythin to do with satan? They had faith but by their ignorance took the mark not knowing much about bilical prophecy....if they went to hell, ....

"how is salvation still by faith?" as this would mean salvation is by intellect/knowledge or so it appears.

I guess alot of it depends on what the actual mark is and how it will be presented to people.
I can understand that if it was literally satan coming down and saying he is our true god and not jesus etc that this would then leave no excuse as they would be willingly worshipping the imposter and rejecting christ, hwever there is another problem....i have read in many places that the enemy plans to force people into taking the mark by starving them among other things. So the same question arises...

"how is salvation by faith if one goes to hell for being weak for just a moment?"

In other words....if they went to hell because they were too weak to resist and thus to avoid starvation, they accepted the mark but obviously "in their hearts" they did not really worship the antichrist like most who take it will. So therefore it "appears" that salvation is not by faith but by "works"

I know that this is not the case and that salvation is indeed by faith but im trying to figure out how this is the case if the examples i gave above seem to say that salvation depends on "works"...wether "we" are strong enough to starve to death and resist the mark or perhaps are we "knowledgeable" enough to not take the mark....both examples seem to sugest that in the mark of hte beast scenario, it does not matter what is in our hearts or how much faith we have...it depends on "us" ....which would contradict the whole message of salvation as ...

There is nothing a man can do to enter heaven and there is nothing he can do to enter hell (except reject christ from his heart)....the heart is what counts as God looks upon the heart.

Any deep thinkers out here who can offer a solution to this?

TransitMan wrote:But what if a christian did not know about the mark of the beast and took it not knowing it had anythin to do with satan?

Impossible. 2 Thess 2:3-8 clearly states that the Antichrist's identity will be revealed after the Restrainer (the Holy Spirit) leaves. Christians living during that time will be given the wisdom to determine the identity of the Antichrist (Rev 13:18).

There will be no excuse. Christians will know the identity of the Antichrist and will be free to choose everlasting life or the momentary ability to buy bread. When you think about it, this is an excellent way of separating the wheat from the chaff.

FL

Thanks for the reply.
If they know for sure it is the antichrist then that's fine, however when you mention that "there will be no excuse" in regard to being able to feed themselves....you are in effect saying that we are saved by our own strength...those who are strong enough to resist the temptation to feed ourselves and family will go to heaven and those who are too weak and give in to the temptation will go to hell. This is basically saying salvation is by works...we EARN salvation which is the problem i state in my post.
There is no seperation of the wheat from the chaff because literally EVERYONE would give in in one scenario or other eventually if they are tempted or tortured in the right way. Anyone who thinks different is clearly living on another planet and has had no experience of life (im not saying this is you...im talking in general)
We still have the problem of "how are we saved by faith" if it is required we have to "do something" to make it to heaven (such as in the starvation scenario)

I should be more clear as to my last reply. What i mean is that many people might submit in order to feed their family but in their hearts they might have no intention of worshipping antichrist and so to them, taking the mark means nothing as in their hearts they fully believe in christ, just not openly like many who worship in secret in countries of persecution.

If however they submitted to feed their family and "in their heart"s decided to reject christ, and took the mark accepting antichrist as god etc etc then that makes sense that they would goto hell as they have rejected him plain and simple and so yes in this circumstance you would be right "there will be no excuse"

TransitMan wrote:I should be more clear as to my last reply. What i mean is that many people might submit in order to feed their family but in their hearts they might have no intention of worshipping antichrist and so to them, taking the mark means nothing as in their hearts they fully believe in christ, just not openly like many who worship in secret in countries of persecution.

If however they submitted to feed their family and "in their heart"s decided to reject christ, and took the mark accepting antichrist as god etc etc then that makes sense that they would goto hell as they have rejected him plain and simple and so yes in this circumstance you would be right "there will be no excuse"

I think we need to trust to the fact that God has this one figured out -and true Christians will have no doubt about what the mark is and we will be given the strength to resist - so again it is not by our works that we are doing this.

Silvertusk.

If there was anyone that truly blasphemed against the HS, it would be Adam and Eve.
No two other humans EVER knew God's love AND presence like they did, not even the Apostles.
And yet.
How will it work for them?

This is an issue of right division. How one approaches the scriptures has to do with how one reads these verses. The question regarding these verses has to do with to whom and to what time they apply?

You are right to spot an apparent contradiciton. If "we" are saved by faith, then why are there areas in the Bible such as this and Matt. 25, where salvation is conditional? People invent all kinds of ways to handle this to avoid the contradiction, such as saying, "'true' believers will do this and won't do that. Therefore, it is still 'faith alone.'" Even though it isn't faith alone. This makes a fundemental error in what constitutes faith/belief.

There are essentially two ways this verse is interpreted regarding time. One being that it has already happened (preterism) and one that it is yet to happen (various forms of dispensationalism).

Let's ask this question. Does God deal with mankind the same in all times and places? No. Acts 17:30 God dealt with mankind at one point in a very distinct way. The circumcision and the uncircumcision. One was a covenant people, heirs to the promises of God. The others were "without hope in the world." (Eph. 2:12)

To the best of my understanding (And i could be wrong) these verses refer to a future time, when Israel (not a political government) will be restored as God's Kingdom people. This will happen when Israel receives the Messiah. So, this would not be an issue of "Christian" as we know it today. That is, the body of Christ under the dispensation of grace. But, instead is the Kingdom program, the new covenant, promised through the prophets to Israel. "He must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets." (Acts 3:21) What was the promise? To establish Israel as the earthly Kingdom.

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:There will be no excuse. Christians will know the identity of the Antichrist and will be free to choose everlasting life or the momentary ability to buy bread. When you think about it, this is an excellent way of separating the wheat from the chaff.

How do deal reconcile that with this verse, which speaks to those times. "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." Matt. 24:24

The way I interpret these verses is that the faithful will be saved via their faith ( a faith that produces good works out of love and not for recompense) and those that have NOT KNOWN Christ for NO FAULT of thier own, will be judged on what they have done and WHY they have done it.
The parable of the goats and sheeps gives a good understanding of this.
As does John5:24-29
24“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Two Resurrections

25“Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26“For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; 27and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man. 28“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Of course this is simply my view ( though it has been shared by many over the centuries) and the reality of this is that there is only ONE that knows for sure and that One is God.

As does John5:24-29
24“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Paul, I don't know how simple that is. You are saying works are required either way. Should we not revise this verse.
"whoever hears my word, and believes with a belief that produces good works, Him who sent me, has eteranal life and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death to life, unless he doesn't produce good works.

jlay wrote:

As does John5:24-29
24“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Paul, I don't know how simple that is. You are saying works are required either way. Should we not revise this verse.
"whoever hears my word, and believes with a belief that produces good works, Him who sent me, has eteranal life and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death to life, unless he doesn't produce good works.

Required? No, but a sign of faith, yes of course.
I don't see how faith in Christ can NOT produce good works, can you?
I think that comparison is what is being made:
Those that believe, their works are already justified and a judgement is not needed.
Those that do not believe will be judge on their works or perhaps more correctly, their works will be judged by their intent?
Either case I think that it doesn't state that works are REQUIRED but are a byproduct of the Grace given.
Much like one the loves another "works" to make the other person happy not because that is what gets them that love (they already have it) but because their loves "motivates" the desire to please the other.

I don't see how faith in Christ can NOT produce good works, can you?

I see believers, including myself, not producing the works they ought to everyday. How about you?

Of course you are saying works are required. The only difference is that you are sneaking them in the back door. That works WILL/MUST follow faith, or else.
I think faith SHOULD motivate us to walk in the good works already prepared. But, you are saying they must be there or else the faith wasn't really faith. Which is really, IMO, defining faith in a different way. So, I would ask you to define faith and be specific.

jlay wrote:

I don't see how faith in Christ can NOT produce good works, can you?

I see believers, including myself, not producing the works they ought to everyday. How about you?

Of course you are saying works are required. The only difference is that you are sneaking them in the back door. That works WILL/MUST follow faith, or else.
I think faith SHOULD motivate us to walk in the good works already prepared. But, you are saying they must be there or else the faith wasn't really faith. Which is really, IMO, defining faith in a different way. So, I would ask you to define faith and be specific.

I don't judge other believers in regards what they CAN or DO, do.
I leave that to Christ.
I am NOT saying works are required, unless the "action" of belief is a work of course.
I am saying that "good works" can come from faith, you don't agree?
I am saying that "good works" with NO though of recompense are a sign of faith, not THE sign or ONLY sign but A sign.
I feel like James here, LOL !

jlay wrote:To the best of my understanding (And i could be wrong) these verses refer to a future time, when Israel (not a political government) will be restored as God's Kingdom people.

It seems to me that you've jumped the gun. The verses refer to the Tribulation period when the Antichrist will be ruler on earth. As for TransitMan's comment to my original post,

TransitMan wrote:Thanks for the reply.
If they know for sure it is the antichrist then that's fine, however when you mention that "there will be no excuse" in regard to being able to feed themselves....you are in effect saying that we are saved by our own strength...those who are strong enough to resist the temptation to feed ourselves and family will go to heaven and those who are too weak and give in to the temptation will go to hell. This is basically saying salvation is by works...we EARN salvation which is the problem i state in my post.
There is no seperation of the wheat from the chaff because literally EVERYONE would give in in one scenario or other eventually if they are tempted or tortured in the right way. Anyone who thinks different is clearly living on another planet and has had no experience of life (im not saying this is you...im talking in general)
We still have the problem of "how are we saved by faith" if it is required we have to "do something" to make it to heaven (such as in the starvation scenario)

You are too much trusting in the flesh, and not enough trusting in God's providence. Silvertusk gave an excellent reply:

Silvertusk wrote: I think we need to trust to the fact that God has this one figured out -and true Christians will have no doubt about what the mark is and we will be given the strength to resist - so again it is not by our works that we are doing this.

Silvertusk.

You would do well to pray for understanding and faith.

FL

Some good replies here. I should mention that i can't do the quote thing for some reason, or put anything in bold etc...somethin is not right with my computer that won't allow me so im sorry about that...ill just write the name that says something;

Silvertusk wrote;

"I think we need to trust to the fact that God has this one figured out -and true Christians will have no doubt about what the mark is and we will be given the strength to resist - so again it is not by our works that we are doing this."

Ok, i understand what you meanSilvertusk but it still "seems" to me (or at least on the surface) that God is changing the requirements for salvation by saying it was grace through faith but now its "accept me as your lord and saviour AND dont take the mark no matter what, and bad luck if you are not tough enough" and if this is the case, why is it the case?. This confuses me. I understand what you mean by being given the strength to resist but it does not solve the problem of "faith alone". As if we believe faith alone saves, then taking the mark would just be a regular sin unless as otherwise stated in the context of us willingly worshipping him and thus if it is a regular sin, there is no strength that will be given "all christians" to resist it because all of us are not given the strength to resist any other sin are we? We sin every day and if god gave us the strength to resist sin, then there would be no point to our learning experience or whatever you might want to call it.

Jhay, you have an interesting way of thinking. You said ;

"Let's ask this question. Does God deal with mankind the same in all times and places? No. Acts 17:30 God dealt with mankind at one point in a very distinct way. The circumcision and the uncircumcision. One was a covenant people, heirs to the promises of God. The others were "without hope in the world." (Eph. 2:12)"

That's something i haven't thought about before in that context. Maybe God does change the rules now and again (if i've understood you right). Maybe the requirement for salvation is indeed (at the actual time of the mark) to "also" to resist the mark and prove who we really worship. That's very interesting to think about. Perhaps indeed there are "game changers" at times for reasons beyond our intellect....i just wish the bible was more easily understandable as it takes the inner "peace" away that a christian is supposed to have of his salvation, especially when he needs it the most....the end times.

Paulsacrameno;

I understand what you are saying regarding works. I believe that while salvation is by faith (as do you), that if one has sufficient time to live, after accepting christ, then he will eventually "change" hence the requirement of repentance which means "change". So in time, if a person is truly saved, then yes i agree, there should be visible works that will "eventually" manifest....but sometimes they may be mental works which man can't ever see which is why it is good that God looks upon the heart for all matters when he judges us and is why i enjoyed reading your and jhays posts in the "denial of christ" topic as you both seem to be "practical christians" and not legalistic/unrealistic in a way ive unfortunately seen so many act like in my life.

FL you said;

"You are too much trusting in the flesh, and not enough trusting in God's providence"

You say that because you have misunderstood the context of my belief. I simply am confused as to what it means. Your statement "seems" to be based upon "your own belief" regarding the mark, which i am not currently subject to as i am trying to figure it out regarding the apparent contradiction of requirements of salvation. I explained some of it above which may perhaps help you understand where im coming from....im very busy/tired most of the time so i may not have done a good job of that lol but you might get me as time goes on.

and you also said "You would do well to pray for understanding and faith"

Do not all christian's pray for understanding and faith?....but yet we have thousands upon thousands of different denominations out there...many of which say that their way is the only way etc....i agree we should pray for understanding, but that does not allways "guarantee" an accurate answer as it is upto God who he answers or if he does at all.....as is clearly shown in the world of confusion regarding the many different versions of christianity, often it is mans own mind or ego that makes him believe he has a "direct line to god" and thus has the answers. God (in my opinion) can't possibly be revealing himself to all of them or that would suggest god is confusion as they all have different takes on various scriptures and it would contradict scripture which says "God is not the author of confusion"

Paulsacrameno;

I understand what you are saying regarding works. I believe that while salvation is by faith (as do you), that if one has sufficient time to live, after accepting christ, then he will eventually "change" hence the requirement of repentance which means "change". So in time, if a person is truly saved, then yes i agree, there should be visible works that will "eventually" manifest....but sometimes they may be mental works which man can't ever see which is why it is good that God looks upon the heart for all matters when he judges us and is why i enjoyed reading your and jhays posts in the "denial of christ" topic as you both seem to be "practical christians" and not legalistic/unrealistic in a way ive unfortunately seen so many act like in my life.

Of course, that is why one must NOT judge another ( though we can most certainly judge actions as right or wrong, we do not judge the person per say).
The reality is the we do NOT know what a person does or doesn't do, we are NOT with them 24/7, only God is,hence only God can judge.
For a believer ( and when I say believer I mean a person that HAS commited themselves to Christ as Our Lord and Saviour, in life not just in words) the benefit of being under God's grace is that we will not be judged by our actions/deed/works, but are saved by our faith, as opposed to the non-beleiver that will be judged not only on their actions but the intentions behind them.
It is so very hard to BE good, but I would think that for someone that has accepted Christ and has been sealed by the HS, there should be an attempt to be good, no?
Yes, it seems that at times non-beleivers are "better" than some believers, but that is to be expected since the beleiver has come to Christ beacuse theY KNOW they need help, they KNOW they are truly bad and only Christ can save them.

IMO, the one thing a christian must NEVER do is be arrogant and come off with an attitude that is viewed by the non-believer as:
I believe and I am saved, you don't and you are gonna burn in hell, too bad.

Know what I mean?