Evidence for God from Science

<-------click the picture with all the red lines

If they don't believe, then why do they go through so much trouble to try to disprove it? lol Sometimes I wonder if they doubt their own disbelief

Yes, biblical criticism has shown there there are some possible "difficulties" in the various bible books.
Textual and historical criticism has answered all of them to vary degrees of satisfaction.

I know there are some contradictions between the old and new testament but im ok with that because it is obvious why there are

Tina wrote:I know there are some contradictions between the old and new testament but im ok with that because it is obvious why there are

Not all are based on the new covenant overriding the old.
There are some "difficulties" in the OT as well such as the authorship of the Pentateuch, Whether Isaiah was ALL written by the prophet or if from 40 on ward by others, the issue of Daniels prophecies (the hebrew part of the book of Daniel) and when they were written, the two creation stories and two flood stories, etc.

None of these issues are new mind you and have been addressed over and over and answered ( to varying degrees of satisfaction), but most people that want to find issues with the bible don't focus on THAT part it seems.

Tina wrote: <-------click the picture with all the red lines

If they don't believe, then why do they go through so much trouble to try to disprove it? lol Sometimes I wonder if they doubt their own disbelief

So you think they go through the trouble because they do believe?

MAGSolo wrote:

Tina wrote:If they don't believe, then why do they go through so much trouble to try to disprove it? lol Sometimes I wonder if they doubt their own disbelief

So you think they go through the trouble because they do believe?

Tina wants to say that it makes no sense why someone would spend so much time and effort into disproving a deity that (s)he doesn't even believe exists. I believe in the Christian God so, logically, I don't believe in any other deities, but I don't fret over disproving their existence because I don't feel the need to do so - I simply don't believe and that's that. Many atheists often compare belief in God with belief in Santa Claus or tooth fairy, claiming that the evidence for any of them is equally non-existent. Then why doesn't anyone found an organization or start a site called "Santa skeptics" or something similar? I know what you'll say - there aren't 2 billion believers in Santa, or that Santa isn't being shoved down your throats.

But you need to face the fact that the Western society was practically built on Christianity, and it will always remain an important part of our heritage. You can't show up after hundreds of years of advancement, declare a country secular, and claim that it's successful without God, an atheistic country (mind that I'm not speaking about any country in particular). Furthermore, Christian heritage enabled you free speech in the first place.

We wouldn't get too far if we were all atheists. Selfishness would ensue, nobody would work for the betterment of the society and the future generations, we would live irresponsibly, selfishly and we would die out in two to three generations. Nobody would care, because there would be no reason to care.

So to all those who are so desperate to disprove "religion" (interesting that under "religion" they usually refer only to Christianity, not other religions although they are becoming significant in the West as well), think twice about the consequences that would ensue if your wishes actually came to fruition. Fortunately, they won't.

there aren't 2 billion believers in Santa, or that Santa isn't being shoved down your throats.

Got your point, but there aren't 2 billions believers in Christ. There may be 2 billion people who claim that are Christian. I was baptized a a Christian when I was born. Does that make me a Christian?

But you need to face the fact that the Western society was practically built on Christianity

I think it's actually the other way around: Christianity was built around the Western society.

Furthermore, Christian heritage enabled you free speech in the first place.

No it didn't. It was actually people who fought for their freedom of speech.

We wouldn't get too far if we were all atheists. Selfishness would ensue, nobody would work for the betterment of the society and the future generations, we would live irresponsibly, selfishly and we would die out in two to three generations. Nobody would care, because there would be no reason to care.

Needless to say that your statement can easily be proved wrong. Just look at other civilizations and how those did. It's not very hard to spot that taking God out of the equation is not such a big problem.

If they don't believe, then why do they go through so much trouble to try to disprove it? lol Sometimes I wonder if they doubt their own disbelief

Everybody believes in something.

Re: western society and Christianity.
There are so many books that show how Christian though shaped western society in so many different ways, its hard to pick just one...
The Book that Made Your World: How the Bible Created the Soul of Western Civilization by Vishal Mangalwadi (May 10, 2011)
How The Catholic Church Built Western Civilization by Thomas E. Woods (May 2, 2005)
How Christianity Changed the World by Alvin J. Schmidt (Nov 30, 2004)

BryanH wrote:

there aren't 2 billion believers in Santa, or that Santa isn't being shoved down your throats.

Got your point, but there aren't 2 billions believers in Christ. There may be 2 billion people who claim that are Christian. I was baptized a a Christian when I was born. Does that make me a Christian?

Understood, but my point was the impact of Christianity in the world, and the fact that 1 out of 3 people in the world at least claim to be Christian, says a lot about the worldwide influence of Christianity.

BryanH wrote:

But you need to face the fact that the Western society was practically built on Christianity

I think it's actually the other way around: Christianity was built around the Western society.

Could you elaborate on that?

BryanH wrote:

Furthermore, Christian heritage enabled you free speech in the first place.

No it didn't. It was actually people who fought for their freedom of speech.

Fighting for freedom would have been useless if their heads were chopped off by the authorities. You'll easily notice that a majority of countries with free speech were built on Christian heritage. While those who deny it (like Communism, for instance) seem very prone to censorship and repression.

BryanH wrote:

We wouldn't get too far if we were all atheists. Selfishness would ensue, nobody would work for the betterment of the society and the future generations, we would live irresponsibly, selfishly and we would die out in two to three generations. Nobody would care, because there would be no reason to care.

Needless to say that your statement can easily be proved wrong. Just look at other civilizations and how those did. It's not very hard to spot that taking God out of the equation is not such a big problem.

Of course not. The former USSR took God out of the equation, and nothing happened - except tens of millions of dead people.
What are those civilizations that you mentioned? Care to provide some examples?

Of course not. The former USSR took God out of the equation, and nothing happened - except tens of millions of dead people.
What are those civilizations that you mentioned? Care to provide some examples?

The unfortunate "side effect" of the atheistic regimes of Communisim (not just in Russia of course) was that they seemed very much predisposed to kill off their populous.
China, Camobodia, Eastern Block nations, N.Korea, etc, etc.

Reactionary wrote:

BryanH wrote:

We wouldn't get too far if we were all atheists. Selfishness would ensue, nobody would work for the betterment of the society and the future generations, we would live irresponsibly, selfishly and we would die out in two to three generations. Nobody would care, because there would be no reason to care.

Needless to say that your statement can easily be proved wrong. Just look at other civilizations and how those did. It's not very hard to spot that taking God out of the equation is not such a big problem.

Of course not. The former USSR took God out of the equation, and nothing happened - except tens of millions of dead people.
What are those civilizations that you mentioned? Care to provide some examples?

Well, there's Iceland, Sweden, Norway, & Belgium. All extremely secular countries that have extremely low crime, high health, and stable economies (And yes, Iceland is very stable now as well as the safest country in the world). Australia, Japan, and France are also partial examples. It is possible to be moral without religion - you can attribute this to God's gift of a conscience or you can claim something else absurd. Just try and stick to facts when facts are applicable. :\

And for what it's worth - my opinion on the Bible is that it is an effective history book that must be looked at with an ethical system in mind (not in search of one) so that you can derive the proper virtues and morals from it. It has many imperfections and errors (it was written by man, afterall).

Beanybag wrote:

Reactionary wrote:

BryanH wrote:

We wouldn't get too far if we were all atheists. Selfishness would ensue, nobody would work for the betterment of the society and the future generations, we would live irresponsibly, selfishly and we would die out in two to three generations. Nobody would care, because there would be no reason to care.

Needless to say that your statement can easily be proved wrong. Just look at other civilizations and how those did. It's not very hard to spot that taking God out of the equation is not such a big problem.

Of course not. The former USSR took God out of the equation, and nothing happened - except tens of millions of dead people.
What are those civilizations that you mentioned? Care to provide some examples?

Well, there's Iceland, Sweden, Norway, & Belgium. All extremely secular countries that have extremely low crime, high health, and stable economies (And yes, Iceland is very stable now as well as the safest country in the world). Australia, Japan, and France are also partial examples. It is possible to be moral without religion - you can attribute this to God's gift of a conscience or you can claim something else absurd. Just try and stick to facts when facts are applicable. :\

And for what it's worth - my opinion on the Bible is that it is an effective history book that must be looked at with an ethical system in mind (not in search of one) so that you can derive the proper virtues and morals from it. It has many imperfections and errors (it was written by man, afterall).

Moral without religion and yet taking from religion what makes you moral.
Like an all-you-can-eat buffet - take what you like and disregard the rest.
Paul himself said that the pagans know God without knowing GOD.
The knew the "law" ( what was right and what was wrong) without having the "law" and that is because ALL TRUTH is God's truth.

PaulSacramento wrote:Moral without religion and yet taking from religion what makes you moral.
Like an all-you-can-eat buffet - take what you like and disregard the rest.
Paul himself said that the pagans know God without knowing GOD.
The knew the "law" ( what was right and what was wrong) without having the "law" and that is because ALL TRUTH is God's truth.

Then why do we need to use the Bible?

Beanybag wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:Moral without religion and yet taking from religion what makes you moral.
Like an all-you-can-eat buffet - take what you like and disregard the rest.
Paul himself said that the pagans know God without knowing GOD.
The knew the "law" ( what was right and what was wrong) without having the "law" and that is because ALL TRUTH is God's truth.

Then why do we need to use the Bible?

Because the WHOLE picture is far better than a fussy copy of it.

PaulSacramento wrote:

Beanybag wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:Moral without religion and yet taking from religion what makes you moral.
Like an all-you-can-eat buffet - take what you like and disregard the rest.
Paul himself said that the pagans know God without knowing GOD.
The knew the "law" ( what was right and what was wrong) without having the "law" and that is because ALL TRUTH is God's truth.

Then why do we need to use the Bible?

Because the WHOLE picture is far better than a fussy copy of it.

But aren't we saying that the Bible is a fussy copy (of a copy of a copy)?