Evidence for God from Science

Hello, everyone. I'm hoping this is an appropriate first post. I simply thought this could spark an interesting discussion.

Upon conversing with an atheist friend of mine, he sent me this article.

LINK TO ARTICLE: http://articles.exchristian.net/2003/03 ... stians.php

----------------------------------------------------------------
10 QUESTIONS FOR CHRISTIANS
submitted by Gary McNutt

1. Where is the justice in punishing us for Adam's sin? If the bible itself says that children will not be punished for the parents' sins (Deut. 24:16). Furthermore, if God really created Adam not knowing either good or evil (Gen 3:22), how could such a harsh and enduring punishment as death for Adam and all his descendants possibly be just? Our secular courts are more just than God when they show mercy on people who cannot distinguish between right and wrong, such as children and the mentally handicapped. And why isn't this doctrine of original sin found anywhere in the Bible except in Paul's writings? Why didn't Jesus ever mention it, or teach it?

2. How could Adam and Eve ever have sinned if God had actually created them perfect, even if they did have free will? If God created them imperfect, how could a perfect omnipotent being create anything imperfect?

3. Why Pray? If it changes God's mind then he is not sovereign. If it does not change Gold's mind then it is superfluous.

4. Why would a loving, omnipotent, benevolent god cause people to believe falsehoods so that he can condemn them? (II Thes 2:11 - 12)

5. Why does Jesus quote a non-existent verse of the OT scripture (John 7:38)? Is it possible that he considered other non-canonical writings also to be God's Word?

6. Which "Ten Commandments" are the Ten Commandments - the ones listed in Exodus 20 and Deuteronomy 5, or the ones listed at Exodus 34? Only the list at Exodus 34 is explicitly called the "Ten Commandments" in the biblical text.

7. Why does the writer of Matthew quote a non-existent OT prophecy (Matthew 2:23)?

8. Why does the writer of Matthew attribute a quote about the potter's field to Jeremiah, when Jeremiah has no such passage and the closest one in the OT is Zechariah (Matthew 27:9 - 10, Zechariah 11:12)?

9. Why doesn't prayer work, when the bible promises that it will (John 14:14, for example)?

10. Why aren't christians doing greater works than Jesus did, since he himself said they would (John 14:12)? Why aren't they raising the dead, turning water into wine, healing the sick, feeding multitudes from a very small amount of food, casting out demons, walking on water?
----------------------------------------------------------------
I really question Gary McNutt's understanding of the scripture, especially once I read #3, but the others perplex me to some degree, as I'm only beginning on my mission for Biblical understanding. So, I now I ask the community to give their thoughts on these questions.

Here is my answer on some of these points.

10 QUESTIONS FOR CHRISTIANS
submitted by Gary McNutt

1. Where is the justice in punishing us for Adam's sin? If the bible itself says that children will not be punished for the parents' sins (Deut. 24:16). Furthermore, if God really created Adam not knowing either good or evil (Gen 3:22), how could such a harsh and enduring punishment as death for Adam and all his descendants possibly be just? Our secular courts are more just than God when they show mercy on people who cannot distinguish between right and wrong, such as children and the mentally handicapped. And why isn't this doctrine of original sin found anywhere in the Bible except in Paul's writings? Why didn't Jesus ever mention it, or teach it?

We are punished for our own sins - not Adam's. Knowing good and evil - as actually committing good and evil. You don't know evil until you commit it. Adam had sinned - and therefore now knew evil.

2. How could Adam and Eve ever have sinned if God had actually created them perfect, even if they did have free will? If God created them imperfect, how could a perfect omnipotent being create anything imperfect?

They were perfect freewill beings - who chose to sin - I see no contradiction there.

3. Why Pray? If it changes God's mind then he is not sovereign. If it does not change Gold's mind then it is superfluous.

Praying is all about how it changes you rather then God - plus it builds up a relationship.

4. Why would a loving, omnipotent, benevolent god cause people to believe falsehoods so that he can condemn them? (II Thes 2:11 - 12)

I believe this will be on the similar vein to God giving them over to what they already want or believe - this is the whole Phaorah heart hardening method again.

6. Which "Ten Commandments" are the Ten Commandments - the ones listed in Exodus 20 and Deuteronomy 5, or the ones listed at Exodus 34? Only the list at Exodus 34 is explicitly called the "Ten Commandments" in the biblical text.

Does it matter?

9. Why doesn't prayer work, when the bible promises that it will (John 14:14, for example)?

All prayer works - just that sometimes you do not get the answer you wanted.

10. Why aren't christians doing greater works than Jesus did, since he himself said they would (John 14:12)? Why aren't they raising the dead, turning water into wine, healing the sick, feeding multitudes from a very small amount of food, casting out demons, walking on water?

Depends on how you define "greater works". If you are bringing many people to Christ without the ability to perform miracles - surely that is more "greater". If you are showing the love of Christ though incredible hardship and suffering - surely that is great work. How many millions of lives have been saved through the love of Christian charities - are these great works?

7. Why does the writer of Matthew quote a non-existent OT prophecy (Matthew 2:23)?

There are various views on this.
Matt was quoting an oral tradition.
He was quoting a play on the word "stem" in Isaiah 11:1
He was using the term "nazarene" as a derogatory term, that Jesus would be called "Nazarene" ( nothing good comes from Nazareth).

Stygian wrote: 1. Where is the justice in punishing us for Adam's sin? If the bible itself says that children will not be punished for the parents' sins (Deut. 24:16). Furthermore, if God really created Adam not knowing either good or evil (Gen 3:22), how could such a harsh and enduring punishment as death for Adam and all his descendants possibly be just? Our secular courts are more just than God when they show mercy on people who cannot distinguish between right and wrong, such as children and the mentally handicapped. And why isn't this doctrine of original sin found anywhere in the Bible except in Paul's writings? Why didn't Jesus ever mention it, or teach it?

Well, not everyone agrees on the doctrine of original sin. But Adam sinned because of free will, we inherited that sin nature. Instead of getting into issues already talked about recently about man's capability and original sin, I'll just say what Christians do agree on. Namely, Christians agree that all men sin and fall short of the glory of God. As far as punishment being "overly harsh", those who believe so tend (at least in my experience) not to understand the nature of sin or the nature of God.

2. How could Adam and Eve ever have sinned if God had actually created them perfect, even if they did have free will? If God created them imperfect, how could a perfect omnipotent being create anything imperfect?

What if God did create beings that were perfect for his purposes? The assertion that a perfect being could not create imperfect beings needs to be proven. Also, even in my own personal experience I can see how evil can lead to an even greater good. God can have his reasons for doing things, he's the omniscient one not me. Finally, there are those who would say that either Adam had a real choice or he didn't, or that a being without the capability of sinning would be a robot.

3. Why Pray? If it changes God's mind then he is not sovereign. If it does not change Gold's mind then it is superfluous.

This again is a poorly thought out objection. Why would God changing his mind prove he's not sovereign? Who's to say he couldn't be willing and able to help someone if only they bother to ask. An analogy could be a parent who wants to teach his child to ask for things. He knows his kid wants a cookie. He knows he could choose to just give the kid the cookie. But he's not going to do it unless the kid actually asks for the cookie. Does that somehow prove the parent isn't a parent?

But the more important issue is a misunderstanding of prayer that I constantly see. Why communicate with your loved ones? Prayer isn't a gimme list, asking for things should only be a part of prayer just like asking for things is only a part of your communication with a friend or family member. Its for the edification and strengthening of believers.

4. Why would a loving, omnipotent, benevolent god cause people to believe falsehoods so that he can condemn them? (II Thes 2:11 - 12)

Because it accomplishes his good purposes. But I think there could be objections to that reading and the question certainly has a "biased tinge" to it. Man is all too willing to sin on his own, its not as if its these poor innocent humans that God is forcing to disobey him.

5. Why does Jesus quote a non-existent verse of the OT scripture (John 7:38)? Is it possible that he considered other non-canonical writings also to be God's Word?

Who says its a non-existent Scripture? It could be referring to several verses.

6. Which "Ten Commandments" are the Ten Commandments - the ones listed in Exodus 20 and Deuteronomy 5, or the ones listed at Exodus 34? Only the list at Exodus 34 is explicitly called the "Ten Commandments" in the biblical text.

Maybe I'm dense but I don't quite see the point of this one.

7. Why does the writer of Matthew quote a non-existent OT prophecy (Matthew 2:23)?

The word "non-existent" is again not justified. There could be prophecy not recorded in the Old Testament, what would be the issue of that? But the verse could also be referring to Isaiah 11:1 or to the fact that "a Nazarene" is a title of dishonor (and is alluding, then, to the Scriptures that indicate that the Messiah would be despised).

8. Why does the writer of Matthew attribute a quote about the potter's field to Jeremiah, when Jeremiah has no such passage and the closest one in the OT is Zechariah (Matthew 27:9 - 10, Zechariah 11:12)?

I'm going to quote my one of my study Bibles on this. First, the quote contains allusions to Jeremiah 19:1-13. Also, "Jeremiah is cited as the prophet most relevant to Matthew's point. That the fit between the quote and the event is rough argues that Matthew did not invent the event to "fulfill" a prophecy".

9. Why doesn't prayer work, when the bible promises that it will (John 14:14, for example)?

It does work. But this again is misunderstanding the purpose of prayer in a very bad way. Did these ex-Christians never bother to learn correct doctrine as far as prayer? I'd suggest this could be a big part of the reason for the "ex" part. Also, sin and lack of faith can hinder prayer. And finally sometimes the answer is "no" and sometimes the answer is "later". The cases where answered prayer is exactly what you expect are fairly rare, at least in my experience.

10. Why aren't christians doing greater works than Jesus did, since he himself said they would (John 14:12)? Why aren't they raising the dead, turning water into wine, healing the sick, feeding multitudes from a very small amount of food, casting out demons, walking on water?

I'd agree with Silvertusk that great works don't have to be "raising the dead" or spectacular miracles. One of the greatest things a person could do is lead a person to Christ, and lots of Christians have done that. There's also the assumption here that Christians haven't done these things. I know of several claims as far as healing the sick and casting out demons, I even heard a "feeding multitudes from a very small amount of food" testimony fairly recently.

Then there is cessationism to address as well.


These are my initial answers. These aren't the worst questions I've ever seen (not by a long shot), but they don't reflect a great understanding of Scripture. So they definitely aren't the best questions either, if you study enough most of these aren't going to be the questions you're asking imo. It would also help if you knew the purpose of the questions. Especially some of the ones related to passages that really only require a more nuanced understanding (like quoting Scripture that doesn't appear word for word in the New Testament). It'd also make a difference what group of Christian's you're asking. Then a few of the questions, like the ones on prayer, are just completely off.

8. Why does the writer of Matthew attribute a quote about the potter's field to Jeremiah, when Jeremiah has no such passage and the closest one in the OT is Zechariah (Matthew 27:9 - 10, Zechariah 11:12)?

Various views on this too:
Scribal error on the part of a copyist.
That it is referencing Jeremiah 32:6-15
It could be the Matthew was the relations between Jeremiah and Zechariah:
Zechariah 11:3 and Jeremiah 25:34-38.
Zechariah 11:9 and Jeremiah 43:11.
Zechariah 11:17 and Jeremiah 23:1-2.

Questions 4, 5, 7, 8, and 10 were the ones I had the biggest troubles in answering effectively, and it seems everyone has provided some very useful answers.They were simply scriptural references I did not understand, but I thank everyone that participated for helping clear them up.

Ex Christian? How profound. To the original poster - why do you read that nonsense? When I come across such bigotry, I just ignore it, as it's not worth my nerves. But since you're new to this forum, I'll welcome you with a little analysis of that... site.

Religion as a disease? Indoctrination? Old, recycled story, but apparently it's an integral part of every Christian-bashing site, article or book. Congratulations to those "brave" individuals who finally found the mental strength to say "I'm not a Christian." Surprisingly, they weren't arrested, sentenced to death for heresy and consequently executed, because apparently nobody told them that there are no laws that would allow something like that to happen these days. I guess they're trailing quite a few centuries after the course of events. Pity.

Suppressing logical thought to uphold religious beliefs? If it wasn't tragic, it would be funny. Using immaterial laws of logic in a material world, brilliant. Unless they aren't? In that case, I'd like a kilogram of logic, please.

Women entrapped by their abusive "Christian" husbands? Like there aren't any atheist abusive husbands. Turns out that if you become an atheist, you suddenly stop being violent, closed-minded, ignorant or whatever else you didn't like about yourself. Your life suddenly becomes rosy and wonderful, like a fairytale, until the day you die and disappear forever. Let's rejoice at those wonderful news.

Christians as deluded, ignorant fools? Please, tell me more about how enlightened and open-minded you are. Determinism and chemical reactions in the brain are the only thing we'd have if our minds were strictly material - and if atheism were true, they'd be. Not much room for free will there, I'm sorry.

Unfair God? Please, tell me more about your subjective moral standard which should, for some reason, apply to everyone. Typical open-mindedness.

Let's have a look at the "disclaimer":

The ExChristian.Net/Ex-Christian.Net websites are open to all with the stipulations that they not be used for a SPAM medium or a place to verbally abuse Ex-Christians. Personal hate campaigns leveled at non-Christians are not appreciated; such postings may be deleted.

Spammers and those who regularly post acidic, angry rhetoric against non-Christians may be banned from posting.

Wait, so personal hate campaigns leveled at Christians will be appreciated, right? So I had thought.

Another thing that I find interesting:

This blog exists for the express purpose of encouraging those who have decided to leave religion (Christianity) behind.

Wait, but what if someone has been "entrapped" by some other religion? Doesn't matter? Of course - bashing Christianity is popular. Bashing other religions means being intolerant. Double standards everywhere.

My verdict? Frustrated people who don't like the idea of being accountable to a higher power, resort to one of the most frequently used psychological defensive mechanisms - denial. Collectively it works more efficiently, but if someone is truly open-minded and honest with him/herself, all denials of the world are worthless. Therefore, they're hypocritical and inconsistent as well. The Bible, a book so infamous among them, even has a passage about them - Romans 1:20,21,22,23. I'd also add group thinking and a desire to be accepted - that's why they have a need to write their little, touching stories about how they used to be tortured by this "evil" religion. It enables them to aid each other in supporting the nonsense their rational minds reject, but they intentionally brainwash themselves in order to deny the truth, yet at the same time accusing Christians of being brainwashed - a good example of projection.

I'd like to post a few comments over there, but 1) I don't have the time to waste, and 2) it's not that simple. All these things I listed above can't be overcome so easily via the computer. It takes some doing, which I definitely don't have the time nor patience for. Still, good luck to those who do.

Reactionary wrote:Ex Christian? How profound. To the original poster - why do you read that nonsense? When I come across such bigotry, I just ignore it, as it's not worth my nerves.

Again, I was pointed toward it by an atheist friend. Now, I've come across many people sending me things that were pretty much entirely intolerant of Christianity in an overtly unfair manner, which I was usually able to dismiss quite easily. However, I only found this one would ignite a good discussion. For me, someone who is no master of scripture, I figured I would merely use that list to express some of the things I didn't quite understand in terms of scriptural interpretation. Then again, I guess then it would have been easier to post the questions from that list that I actually had strong doubts about

Reactionary wrote:I'd like to post a few comments over there, but 1) I don't have the time to waste, and 2) it's not that simple.

Actually, don't waste your time either way. Most pro-Christian comments I've seen there are met with a barrage of "Well, you're Christian, so shut up," or atheists pretending they're on the imaginary moral and intellectual high ground somehow.

Many thanks for your thoughts in general! I found them very insightful and helpful. I'll be sure to steer clear from ExChristian.com, unless they manage to post something worthwhile.

Stygian wrote:

Reactionary wrote:I'd like to post a few comments over there, but 1) I don't have the time to waste, and 2) it's not that simple.

Actually, don't waste your time either way. Most pro-Christian comments I've seen there are met with a barrage of "Well, you're Christian, so shut up," or atheists pretending they're on the imaginary moral and intellectual high ground somehow.

Well, I wrote my previous post last night when I was tired, so now on second thought, I think I might even join their forum and write a little essay refuting their nonsense. During the following days... if I find time of course. I'm not optimistic, I just want to see how long it will take those alleged freedom lovers to ban me. Two days, at most?

Stygian wrote:Many thanks for your thoughts in general! I found them very insightful and helpful. I'll be sure to steer clear from ExChristian.com, unless they manage to post something worthwhile.

You're welcome, Stygian. If you ever need help about some other topic, feel free to post it here. Unlike those phony intellectuals, we are honest.

I think I might even join their forum and write a little essay refuting their nonsense.

EDIT: Shame - looks like you have to pay to sign in!

The site is full of ads begging people to donate. Now this is worse than I thought... No dignity whatsoever.